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    PKZ Timeline

    As you know, much has been written and speculated about when the PKZ codes were introduced.

    Check out this post where an EK clearly marked '65' was dug up near Stalingrad. Surely, this is important to help establish that the PKZ codes were introduced much earlier than thought?

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&postcount=290

    There wouldn't have been any German troops in the area after Feb 1943. Therefore one must consider that PKZ were in use in 1943.

    Rich
    Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
    Decorations of Germany

    #2
    Originally posted by Richard Gordon View Post
    As you know, much has been written and speculated about when the PKZ codes were introduced.

    Check out this post where an EK clearly marked '65' was dug up near Stalingrad. Surely, this is important to help establish that the PKZ codes were introduced much earlier than thought?

    http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&postcount=290

    There wouldn't have been any German troops in the area after Feb 1943. Therefore one must consider that PKZ were in use in 1943.

    Rich
    Not questioning the credibility of the find (or the post on that thread), but I'm always a bit of a sceptic when it comes to any ground dug item ... especially one from Russia

    Too many end up being just run of the mill items made to look ground dug and sold at many times the value in it's original state simply because it was found at a "famous" battle field.

    Comment


      #3
      Hi Richard,

      there are very strong and indisputable indications that the PKZ numbers were already in use in 1943. I would not go as far to say February 43 at this point in time.
      Sure is in my mind one thing.: the presence of PKZ numbers has something to do with the medal type itself and the speed of issuing medals already on stock.

      However, it is also very important not to base any conclusion on just one document or "find" alone. If that would be so the PKZ numbers were already in use in mid 1942. This unsubstantiated conclusion would be based on an August 42 awarded K&Q marked "65" - if one believes the COA (dated 02/08!!!) of a very well known Hamburg dealer.

      Dietrich
      B&D PUBLISHING
      Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

      Comment


        #4
        I have this DKiG:
        http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=184183
        And that should have been awarded on 10th of November 1942...it is attributed to :
        <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>Rank: </TD><TD>Oberleutnant </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>Unit: </TD><TD>1.(F)/Nacht-Aufklärungsstaffel </TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>Received on: </TD><TD>10 November 1942</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

        And it has a MM 1.

        Just my 2 cents regarding the PKZ timeline.

        /Flemming

        Comment


          #5
          I understand then need to be careful and of course one item does not make it conclusive. However, there have been many examples of PKZ marked awards appearing groups that do have credible history, ie coming directly from the family and in the 1943 range (or earlier). Again, difficult to prove but cannot be discounted.

          What is the earliest known dates as far as official documents?

          Rich
          Interested in hand-stitched EM/NCO LW insignia and cuff-titles
          Decorations of Germany

          Comment


            #6
            Hello Richard,

            imo the earliest use of the PKZ number which can clearly dated without discussions is the "65" in 1942.

            Imo the PKZ number started shortly after the 01.03.1941.
            Best regards, Andreas

            ______
            The Wound Badge of 1939
            www.vwa1939.com
            The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
            www.ek1939.com

            Comment


              #7
              Couldn't the dug wound badge been dropped by a Russian soldier who got it in another theatre of war later on, and lost it in Stalingrad at the end of the war? Or even after the war? Theoretically, it could have happened.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ak72 View Post
                Hello Richard,
                imo the earliest use of the PKZ number which can clearly dated without discussions is the "65" in 1942.
                Imo the PKZ number started shortly after the 01.03.1941.
                Could you post the evidence for this please?

                Dietrich
                B&D PUBLISHING
                Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hello Dietrich,

                  please look at the following black WB which shows us 3 informations:

                  1. K&Q which is Klein&Quenzer

                  2. 65, the PKZ Code for them

                  3. 42, the year 1942
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by ak72; 08-25-2008, 08:36 AM.
                  Best regards, Andreas

                  ______
                  The Wound Badge of 1939
                  www.vwa1939.com
                  The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
                  www.ek1939.com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Is the 42 stamped?
                    B&D PUBLISHING
                    Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                    Comment


                      #11
                      No, all 3 markings are raised and part of the die.
                      Best regards, Andreas

                      ______
                      The Wound Badge of 1939
                      www.vwa1939.com
                      The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
                      www.ek1939.com

                      Comment


                        #12
                        If the "42" really means the year 1942 then this is good evidence that at least Klein & Quenzer already had a PKZ number in 1942 and was using it. And I would certainly think that if K&Q had one all the others before him also had one.
                        B&D PUBLISHING
                        Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dietrich Maerz View Post
                          And I would certainly think that if K&Q had one all the others before him also had one.
                          I agree and we will show in the WB book that alot more makers had and used their PKZ code around 1941/1942 so my personal opinion is that the PKZ code started shortly around the 01.03.1941 when we have the official rules where to place maker markings on the badges.
                          Best regards, Andreas

                          ______
                          The Wound Badge of 1939
                          www.vwa1939.com
                          The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
                          www.ek1939.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            If the PKZ code was prescribed shortly after March 1941 why are there a lot of unmarked (or LDO marked) Knights Crosses and German Crosses? And even unmarked RKs from K&Q?

                            Do the other Wound Badges with PKZ marks also have a year on them as part of the die? And where is the proof that the "42" is the year and not a die number, department number or other identifier? I am not saying it is not but I am also not saying it is.
                            B&D PUBLISHING
                            Premium Books from Collectors for Collectors

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Dietrich,

                              imo the 42 as symbol for the year 1942 is according to the rules of logic - what else should it be?

                              I don't know why there are unmarked badges outthere too ... if you ask for my personal opinion i would say these are finished stocks which didn't get markings and subcontracts.
                              Best regards, Andreas

                              ______
                              The Wound Badge of 1939
                              www.vwa1939.com
                              The Iron Cross of 1939- out now!!! Place your orders at:
                              www.ek1939.com

                              Comment

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