RS FlottenKriegsabzeichen

[Milton]

Hello folks. Since there've been so many posts of late regarding High Seas Fleet badges, thought I'd toss this one into the mix. A Souval marked piece. One of the interesting things about this one I've found, is that when it was finished, they saw fit to actually seperate the port & starboard gun barrels from the wreath where they'd normally make contact on most specimens. Since I've not seen many Souval pieces posted in the recent strings, I would appreciate hearing about / seeing some other examples. Thanks!

[Milton]

Reverse view

[Milton]

Hello KM fans. I thought I'd resurrect this OLD thread I posted quite a while back regarding an R.S. HSF badge I'd picked up back then as I thought it was unique inasmuch as the detailed "cut-out" guns on the port and starboard sides..first I've ever seen done this way (as opposed to attached to the wreath). Also of interest (to me at least), was the gilt finish on the reverse as well. Was this a finish variation known to Souval pieces? The badge shows light wear but is in very nice shape and appears consummate in details, configuration, and construction to other wartime examples I've seen by this maker, the aforementioned details notwithstanding. Since the original post garnered NO response, I'm hoping it will at least illicit a bit of feedback this time around. Thank you...

[BubbaZ]

Hi Milton,
Judging from the paint like finish and shape of inner margins it looks postwar to me. So at best wartime leftover piece finished postwar.
Cheers,
Hubert

[Milton]

Thx for the feedback. A possibility I suppose. Perhaps its basically correct details & construction, coupled w/ the anomalies of the cut-out guns and "different" finish, are the reasons it garnered no response when I posted it back in '08....that being that it was baffling to more folks than just me! Be interested in hearing other opinions as well. From my experience, I've not run across post-war souval's with this wartime hinge & pin set up, but "left over" wartime stock might make some sense too. Anyone ever seen another one w/ the cut-out guns and finished this way?

[Norm F]

Hi Milton,

The Souval Fleet badge appears in several variations and as you said some have the guns cut out separate from the wreath while others do not. I don't know for sure, but I suspect their Fleet badge was likely die cast like their Destroyer badge was. They all share the same distinctive surface flaws in the reverse surface and show variable hand finishing to the outlines, unlike what you see in the die struck badges like the Minesweeper.

Here are a couple of examples, one with the guns cut out and one without, and both demonstrate what we consider to be "wartime compatible" finish.

Since the hardware is certainly wartime-compatible, we can't say for sure whether your badge was assembled during wartime or early post-war but I suspect at least that paint-like gold and black finish was applied post-war circa 1970. There are several threads on the Souval finish and some are pinned in the "Other useful Threads" topic at the top of the KM forum.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Then there's the mysterious wide-pin variant which also seems suspicious for post-war assembly and finish. The hinges on these have sharp corners on the flanges which seems different from the hinges on the somewhat similar wide pin Heer badges (seen in this thread). Notice this one has a flat back similar to Milton's and different from the examples with slightly concave reverse -- may be significant?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

And a last variant, wartime-compatible finish, again showing variable hand trimming of the margins and the characteristic reverse die flaws but with a different "wartime compatible" setup with the "question mark"-shaped catch.

[Milton]

WOW...now THAT's some feedback! Many thanks for posting those other examples. So, the first example that you show is an accepted wartime finished (original) piece?? (gilt reverse and cut-out guns)?? If Souval did in fact have so many wartime variations in finish and finishING, is there a possibility that mine was finished this way pre-1945 or is the overall assumption that just due to the finish, it is a post-war finished example of an otherwise original (wartime) mfg'd piece? I would love to know how I can truly classify this one. Thank you again!

[Norm F]

So in summary we see five variants - vaulted with three different hardware setups and flat-backed with two different hardware setups - all of which show characteristic die flaws in the reverse and variable hand timming of the margins, quite possibly a die cast construction.

1) vaulted, wartime compatible hardware with "question mark"-shaped catch
2) vaulted, wartime compatible hardware with round wire catch, with or without the guns cut out from the wreath
3) vaulted, wide pin setup, guns not cut out
4) flat back, wartime compatible hardware, with or without the guns cut out
5) flat back, wide pin setup, guns not cut out.

But it's unclear what the timeline may be and which may be made post-war, and since nothing was sacred to Souval with his leftovers, any badges could be refinished post-war to pretty them up for market.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

...is there a possibility that mine was finished this way pre-1945 or is the overall assumption that just due to the finish, it is a post-war finished example of an otherwise original (wartime) mfg'd piece? I would love to know how I can truly classify this one. Thank you again!

Hi Milton,

Unfortunately there will always be doubt, but to my eye the finish on your Fleet badge is from the same era as the U-Boat badge (and '57-type wound badge) discussed in this thread:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=734126
Some may disagree, but personally I think your badge received that finish post-war and circa 1970. The more difficult question is whether all the components were made and assembled in wartime, or post-war assembly of leftovers, or a combination of new planchet and wartime hardware. I like the look of the slightly vaulted planchets better than the flat backs as potentially wartime produced, but that's only a personal feeling with no proof.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Milton]

Thank you Norm. Man, but that IS a tough call. I can tell you that in hand, the finish of mine is more subdued than the photos indicate (flash, inside, w/ not the best lighting). Too bad it's not a one-looker like the Schwerin piece I just picked up! Well, I'll chalk this one up to a "maybe". Many thanks again for your help!

[John R.]

I would like to clarify (subject to Norm's further explanation) that die casting is a metal casting process that is characterized by forcing molten metal under high pressure into a mold cavity. The mold cavity is created using two hardened tool steel dies which have been machined into shape and work similarly to an injection mold during the process.

Die struck is basically a stamping process.

I had a thread about this 9 years ago and Gordon Williamson summarized the difference in this way:

"Die struck badges are generally stamped from a strip of sheet metal, using two tools. e.g. a U-Boat Badge, first a blanking die tool stamps out the basic part which will still have a "flashing" of metal around the edges and has a "solid" centre. This is then put into a finishing tool which crops off the excess metal around the edge and voids out the centre. This second operation is what gives the shear lines or striations around the edges.

Cast badges using similar die tools (not moulds) but instead of being stamped, molten metal is forced into the die under pressure. This allows parts like the hinge, retaining hook etc to be formed integrally with the badge. Again there will be a "flashing" of surplus metal around the edges and in the centre which is cropped off using a finishing tool.

In both cases, die stamped or die cast there will be striations around the edge, but not a casting line like you see on cast fakes, which are low volume production pieces in which the metal is poured into a mould.

This planchette for a U-Boat clasp will show you what I mean re the flashing of excess metal which has to be cropped off."

[Norm F]

I had a thread about this 9 years ago and Gordon Williamson summarized the difference in this way:

"Die struck badges are generally stamped from a strip of sheet metal, using two tools. e.g. a U-Boat Badge, first a blanking die tool stamps out the basic part which will still have a "flashing" of metal around the edges and has a "solid" centre. This is then put into a finishing tool which crops off the excess metal around the edge and voids out the centre. This second operation is what gives the shear lines or striations around the edges.

Cast badges using similar die tools (not moulds) but instead of being stamped, molten metal is forced into the die under pressure. This allows parts like the hinge, retaining hook etc to be formed integrally with the badge. Again there will be a "flashing" of surplus metal around the edges and in the centre which is cropped off using a finishing tool.

In both cases, die stamped or die cast there will be striations around the edge, but not a casting line like you see on cast fakes, which are low volume production pieces in which the metal is poured into a mould."

Still a great description today. If I'm not mistaken Gordon worked in the tool and die area at some point in his wide and varied past careers?

Best regards,
---Norm

[John R.]

Not sure Norm. He probably told me, but like my photos, my mind is getting fuzzy!!!!