Distinguishing SS M40 tunics from Heer ones

[Zauberflöte]

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[RoyalDragon]

Hello
Pics a of a original salty SS jacket but with the same confection of heer jacket !
NO differnce with a Heer jacket !
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[Mike Davis]

If anybody has M36/40/41 SS tunics made like this, pics would be cool.
I have still never seen a real SS M36- I'm curious whether it follows suit.
Then we could see whether I'm on crack....

Are you sure? I remember talking with you about all of this at The MAX and thought we discussed a couple of examples.




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[n160]

Yes Mike, we did. But the one at the Max (your old one) has a replaced "NCO" collar and was depot marked M41 so we can't be sure what collar it started out with.

Same with the one on your site.

That's why the collar can be a non-issue.

[n160]

Let's turn this on it's head. If I'm smoking crack, find a Heer tunic with that lining pattern. They vary in width and length, but they all have 2 corners- the SS only one. If you'll look, SS M42's are also quite different from Heer in this area. And, that lining panel in the SS M40 looks like the SS M37. The dots are not hard to connect nor are they out of left field.

Skirt length: I have not seen every tunic by any means- but 100% of SS tunics (M40, 41, 42, 43, 44 dot) I have seen and can find pics of on this forum and dealer sites all hold true to a shorter skirt as well.

Virginia and I cataloged about 150 tunic measurements both from actual tunics and photos of stamps we found online. Guess what? They hardly vary at all in this regard (sleeve length relative to body length had a much wider margin).
The Heer skirts start about 28cm and go up to 32 on a really long one. I think there was one midget size (37 back waist) that was a 26. Almost all SS tunics I can find are 25, with an occasional 26. That's a solid and consistent 1.25-2 inch difference from Heer. Just an accident?

[Mike Davis]

Yes Mike, we did. But the one at the Max (your old one) has a replaced "NCO" collar and was depot marked M41 so we can't be sure what collar it started out with.

Same with the one on your site.

That's why the collar can be a non-issue.

Yes, indeed a very good point about the collars which were likely upgraded on both to reflect the dictates of style. The DF tunic I believe to be pre-war, lining conforms to your findings here as well.

[n160]

I compared my M41 SS tunic (without a doubt it was never a Heer tunic as such) and it has indeed the same lining characteristics as N160 claims! The markings are hard to make out but reads Munich depot, so I always figured this to have been a initial Heer contract manufactured tunic?
It would indeed be interesting - and case ruining perhaps? - to see Heer tunics with the same characteristics?

I thought so too- I did not expect to find depot marks on these, but Mike Davis had a beauty (Bill Shea has it now) that was also "M41" marked- but cotton lined, with the "SS lining cut" and a 25cm skirt- but no maker name at all. Others have had size, maker name but no depot. Some sources have mentioned the Army supplying the SS or drawing from Army stores- perhaps that includes allowing the SS to place orders with their contractors as well.

I have wondered how the ghetto made items were marked- like those from Lodz, Warsaw and Lipowa. Many of those were run (leased) by German business men so I suspect they kept their company name. Those shops took orders from all the services, not just the SS.
A book by Jakob Frank ("Himmler's Jewish Tailor") goes into some detail about making Army, SS and Police uniforms and how they had to constantly check to make sure the relevant patterns and materials were used for each- and that they were correctly stamped and bundled. He describes 4 pocket tunics, how complicated they were to make and how they acquired sewing machines. They began production in 1940- but they were run by the SS, not a civilian..so???.

This is like playing "Clue".
Nice tunic.

[NickG]

I don't see " SS cut" here, just a 2 samples of M 40 tunics.
M 41 must have a 6 buttons in row.
The viskose liner did not made from a tunic - SS tunic.
That is just a problem with suppling the cotton from Turkey due of the war
Even IMO I think SS BW markings on the tunic is just a repair on the Bekleidungswerk workshops

Well on their web site ATF is making the (same) claim that there are differences in cut between
Heer M40's, Heer M41's and SS M40's and SS pattern M41's.

If you are a believer that there are no differences other than maker variations
than an M40 or M41 both remain branch-wise unclassified... just manufacturing/assembly technics differ between uniform makers. So in that case a 5 button M41 does not exist... Just like you state Espenlaub.

If the theory is true and indeed there are differences between the uniforms of the 2 branches than we can state that there are (besides SS M40's,
also SS pattern M41's which retain the 5 buttons front but have other M41 traits like shiny rayon linings etc...
(as opposed to Heer M41's which would always have 6 buttons).

I am still on the fence but this theory that manufacturing differences and size variations (collar and length) can make a distinction between Heer contract M40's and SS contract M40 (+ M41) combat uniforms is very intriguing
and can could boost the value of the latter! (without the provenance now needed that the tunic was always SS used! With this revelation the cut would become the proof!

So lets see Heer unforms with SS style liners to disprove this position!
Anything in Mike Beaver's Volume 1 book? I'll need to check tonight!

[Mike Davis]

I thought so too- I did not expect to find depot marks on these, but Mike Davis had a beauty.....This is like playing "Clue".

Indeed it is like playing a bit of a game given imperfect information, etc. Here is a lining shot of that one.

Generally speaking, Heer tunic are not SS tunics just like Heer wraps are not LW wraps. No doubt there were anomalies...

[Paolojulio]

Hi
I am new to this forum but if I can contribute. In the Beaver's book page 229, the SS M 40 that is shown is with three angles like the 'Heer' one.
Conversely, all the ones in the 1941 chapter have the 2 angles.
Hope this helps.

[Paolojulio]

Hi
I am new to this forum but if I can contribute. In the Beaver's book page 229, the SS M 40 that is shown is with three angles like the 'Heer' one.
Conversely, all the ones in the 1941 chapter have the 2 angles.
Hope this helps.

[viva_giulio]

...the history of skirts lenght could be justified by thousand pictures (especially of TK div) were soldiers shown a modified m36 into m37 with shortened skirts.

[kapitein]

What I have seen so far looks very convincing and this theory could very much be correct. This WSS tunic is 4 sale on WAF and indeed fits this pattern!
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=548462
Still waiting for that WH tunic with this pattern interior...
Anyone?
Kapitein

[espenlaub]

If you are a believer that there are no differences other than maker variations
than an M40 or M41 both remain branch-wise unclassified... just manufacturing/assembly technics differ between uniform makers. So in that case a 5 button M41 does not exist... Just like you state Espenlaub.

5 buttons tunic even made in 1942 year is a m 40 tunic, not a m41.
I've seen anougth of M 43 tunics made in 1945 year, that is not giving a chance to be M 44 or 45 to that tunic

SS tunics made " be vorschrift" is both M37, M40 has it's own model and big differences between Heeres model. Other tunics which is mentioned before and made by private firms is a regular army order. It will be very strange to make a same tunics on the same factory one for Heer, and one with a bit curvous stitching especially for SS. There is same cut in all of them, and they has not visual difference being wear. Normally that kind of tunics became to the SS after beginning the war in 1939 year after beginning the combat missions, and huge needs of the combat stuff for that, the SS supply service did not have such a big supply management to supply all the troops with special uniforms

[kapitein]

May I suggest to N160 that we post a link of your theory on the 'Wehrmacht Uniforms and Insignia Forum' to see if we can find any WH tunics with this type of so called 'ss contract liner'?
Kapitein