Small Attack Craft Awards Valuation Survey

[John R.]

Hello KM Collectors,

I am asking for everybody to do a bit of research and offer their opinion on the valuation of each of the five types of "sawfish" patches that exist.

To start with, we know that there were:

1. A proficiency badge. Just a sawfish on a dark blue background

2. Four combat badge in Grades 1-4.

I will attach images of each from the book just published by Dietrich "The Kriegsmarine Awards" , Volume 2, Chapter 17.

Where most of the other combat badges have fairly defined valuation ranges, there is no such range of values set out for these in one thread. So I would like to ask the members to provide their opinions based on dealer sites or what they have observed in collector to collector transactions.

I will start and in the end, I hope we will have created a guide to collectors for these whether selling or buying.

1. Proficiency badge

700-800 euros. Current prices at Weitze and Winkler.

Also, all collectors should use the Dietrich book and this forum as tools in which to determine authenticity of these qualification and combat patches since the great majority are reproductions.

OK, I hope other collectors will add to this and at the end, we have a scale of values that will be useful to others in the hobby.

John

[John R.]

Proficiency Badge

700-850 euros on dealer sites. This may or may not be a fair price, I am just reporting what is listed at this time. Other opinions requested.

[John R.]

Grade 1

[John R.]

Grades 2 and 3

[John R.]

Grade 4

[AndyC]

Kleinkampfmittelverbande Grades 5,6 and 7

Hi

Just wonder about this one in bronze right now for sale at Weitzes
What i know those shoud not have any ribbed fins, right?
I think that the 1957 model have ribs
The price is 3350:- Euro



Andy

[AndyC]

2

[Norm F]

Hi John,

I don't claim any expertise in either these awards or in valuation, but I have a few thoughts on value in general.

To my mind, valuation depends not on rarity alone, but a combination of rarity, condition, provenance, reproducibility by fakers, and finally "fashion" or desirability (a moving target).

As we know the Marine Frontspange, despite its rarity, is valued reasonably low because of the inability to distinguish it from fakes make in anyone's garage so "reproducibility" definitely affects value.

In the case of cloth items like these small attack craft award patches, reproducibility is again a problem. It's not quite as bad the Frontspange where practically "anything goes", but it requires careful study of materials, thread patterns and wear to discern wartime-compatible products, and they're technically easier to reproduce -- a venture which becomes more likely as the perceived value increases.

"Desirability", that elusive quality affecting value of any art work or historical artifact, is a moving target, but in general it's safe to say these patches are a niche market compared with the oddly wider appeal for things like SS insignia.

I think major dealers like Weitze and Winkler, who carry enormous diverse inventories with stable businesses, always err on the side of overpricing since there is no pressure to make a sale, and their livelihood is assured based on the rest of their business. To some degree this allows them to "set the market" for uncommon items as even if only a few people in the internet world actually desire an item, if the item is rare and their pocketbook is deep they may spring for it.

That said, for the value to be that high, I would want reasonable provenance beyond a mere COA for a such an easily reproduced cloth item if I were to spend so much for a bit of cloth that is easily lost and hard to re-sell to a niche market.

Finally, if we use the usual practise of pricing an item for collectors at about 2/3 the retail value assigned by the high end dealers then perhaps 460 Euro for the proficiency badge, but that depends on whether you consider the 700 Euro realistic or an arbitrarily highly set target to test the market.

Best regards,
---Norm

[BubbaZ]

Hi John,
Following your request below there are prices offered currently by André Hüsken:
Grade 1: 1500 eur
Grade 2: 2000 eur
Grade 3: 3000 eur

BTW, Hüsken badges do not look like originals when compared to examples from the book...
A fair price will always be an amount that someone is willing to pay, and not the amount offered.
Cheers,
Hubert

[John R.]

So for now, we have:

Proficiency: 700 eur
Grade 1: 1500 eur
Grade 2: 2000 eur
Grade 3: 2600 eur
Grade 4: ?????

The above seems in line with dealer prices from a quick check of dealer sites.

Lets see what others have to say. I have been offered all 5 patches by the way, however, I do not collect these items. This is just going to be information to the seller of an old collection being dissolved in Germany.

The seller of the collection, who is not the owner, has offered two Proficiency patches at 450 euros to me to give you an idea of what he is thinking, so around 2/3 rds of dealer prices. Like I said, I do not collect these at all.

So we have dealer prices and collector prices I guess.

Other opinions welcome.

We need a guess on the Grade 4 also.

John

[John R.]

So the above offer for the two proficiency patches is in line with what Norm indicated.

The two factors in play are (1) Is it period or a reproduction since these are very dangerous badges and (2) Price, either from a dealer or from a collector.

John

[John R.]

This is from the site of Helmut Weitze, a Grade 3 patch for 2650 euros.

[John R.]

Good post Andy,

I would be dubious of any clasp regardless of ribs or lack of ribs at this point. There is apparently no provenance that these clasps were awarded during the war so collectors who choose to believe whatever story comes with such clasps, do so at some financial risk.

For all I know, the ribbed/ribless issue is nonsense and none of them are wartime production pieces.

If any collector on this forum has proof that such clasps were awarded, it would be interesting to see what that proof might be.

Naturally, there might have been samples made for approval, but even here, I am not aware that there is provenance. It seems fertile ground for fakers to claim that such a piece was a "sample".

I might be wrong and would be happy to be corrected by proof if such proof is in evidence.

There were to be three grades, 5, 6 and 7 in metal.

John

[John R.]

Subject to change based on member input, we have the following "dealer" prices:

Proficiency: 700 eur
Grade 1: 1500 eur
Grade 2: 2000 eur
Grade 3: 2600 eur
Grade 4: ?????

Grades 5, 6, and 7: No known wartime pieces

[BubbaZ]

John,
Here is proficiency badge from another major dealer. Price: 650 eur.
If we talk about major dealer prices of "sawfish" patches and assuming that these badges are not being purchased frequently I would also assume that potential collector can wait with his purchase till 'Christmas sales' in order to receive ca. 15% discount from prices listed above.
Cheers,
Hubert