minesweeper badge.Maker?

[Vandewynckel A.]

Minesweeper bage in zinc.
Opinions and thanks.
André

[Alex K.]

Good

[Nordmark]

Agreed, should be a maker from Gablonz.




Daniel

[andron505]

It's possible unmarked A.S.

[Norm F]

Hi André,

Interesting badge. Looks like a classic "AS in triangle" with the 2nd pattern eagle with the feathered legs in contrast to the smooth legs on the heavier unmarked versions. And yet yours is unmarked which is unusual for this type since the mark was incorporated into the reverse die.

I've seen only one other like this and it was discussed in this thread.

When you compare yours to that one they both have the oval outline pressed into the reverse and a horzizontal flaw across the wreath on the right. Food for thought...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Looking at those two minesweepers reminded me of the thread showing 2 RS Destroyers illustrating the look of late war die cast technology.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...uval+Destroyer

Considering this and also the Gablonz ground finds of Pavel appearing to be late war "AS in triangle" prototypes using cast-in hinge blocks, makes me wonder if the 2 unmarked minesweepers of this thread could in fact be late war examples using die cast technology.

Best regards.
---Norm

[mrg]

Would agree AS

[Jody]

Minesweeper

Hello,
I also agree that it is a Gablonz maker and is probably AS. BTW, Andre compare the ball-hinge and catch to a the other hallmarked AS minesweepers shown and to another of their products, the 2nd pattern S-boot. It should leave no doubts.

Regards,
Jody

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

The "SA in triangle" connection isn't in doubt.

The more interesting question is the production method. Those two badges with with 2nd-pattern eagle and yet no maker mark are rare compared to the marked versions and interestingly have the same tooling marks on the reverse with oval line and the transverse dent in the right side of the wreath. We know from the ground finds that "AS in triangle" was innovative and experimenting with cast-in designs by the end of the war. Some Luft badges were cast, Souval's Destroyer was cast, RK zincers and many wound badges had cast-in hinges and/or catches.

Any other thoughts on what signs to look for to support whether these minesweepers are produced by a casting method or even an open-die forging process perhaps as was being used in the U.S. industry by this time in the 1940's?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Vandewynckel A.]

Dear Fellow Collectors,
Thanks for this interesting information.
The document that came with this Badge was dated 17 December 1940, signed by Hans Stohwasser,Konteradmiraal,Befehlshaber der Sicherung der Ostsee. Of course this Badge could be a replacement and not the original that was given .

Many Thanks

André

[Norm F]

While pondering these unmarked ball-hinge "AS in triangles" with the identical reverse grooving, I came upon an interesting parallel in the Luftwaffe world.

In this thread discussing the Ball Hinge Glider which is likely a late war Gablonz zinc production there are several examples posted and they all share a common groove pattern. "AS in triangle" is a good candidate as a maker of these badges as well, in my opinion.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

That is a great observation and very interesting. I agree with you that the grooves on both the gliders and the Minesweepers would be part of the reverse die because they seem to always be in the exact same spot.

This doesn't necessarily mean they were die cast or die struck, it just means that these marks were part of the reverse die. Whether it was part of the reverse casting mould or part of the flat reverse die used for die striking. I think we would have to look at the edges to see if we can see signs of casting such as a faint seam or injection port to be sure whether these badges were die cast or die struck.

The big difference I see between the gliders and minesweepers are the catches; round wire on the gliders and flatwire on the MS.

Tom
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[Adrian]

Would it be safe to say this example is also by AS?

[Norm F]

Hi Adrian,

I think with your classic first pattern eagle unmarked badge you may have just found the elusive proof of the connection between the marked 2nd pattern eagle "AS in triangle" and the 1st pattern eagle "unmarked AS in triangle" !!!

I've always felt that these were indeed the same maker because of identical crimping, hardware, finish, and exactly matched die characteristics outside of the eagle itself which had been modified from 1st pattern to 2nd pattern. Also throwing people off was the difference in thickness between the two versions, the first pattern unmarked badges being considerably thicker.

But here you see the precisely matching oval markings in the reverse between the 2nd pattern unmarked badge on the left and your 1st pattern unmarked badge on the right. This indicates to me the same reverse tooling, whatever the production method used. Only the eagle cutouts differ between the two. Also "AS in triangle" often coated the badges (S-boots and Minsweepers) with a gold-coloured plating before silvering.

To me the badges presented in this thread may just represent the missing link we've been looking for.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Adrian]

Great news and thank you for the very useful knowledge presented in this thread!
Good comparisons all the way through.