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    MH CCC on Weitze's update

    Hi guys,

    Wonder what the thoughts are on the MH CCC on Weitze's update this afternoon. These have been floating around for a while and seems they are starting to pop up more and more. Thoughts anyone?

    Tom
    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

    #2
    I've always thought they were fake. Of course you could say that if they were fake why don't we see more of them...
    pseudo-expert

    Comment


      #3
      These are so rare, so little is known of them. I have only one picture of the clasp in silver just like Weitze's CCC and I have been collecting pictures of all types for about 12 years now.

      Herr Weitze states it also is a "Buntmetal" variant, it does now seem to puzzel me as many people on this forum state there was never any Buntmetal CCC version made. Something I am not convinced of btw.

      Saying they are popping up more and more could actually mean there is a new copy flooding the market.

      Anyway I don't have a good feeling about this MH one ... it's just a feeling.

      Comment


        #4
        I have seen exactly that kind of CCC, but without mm and with a small hook at the back!!! Nicely worn and all. 100% fake if you ask me.

        Comment


          #5
          There's only one way I can put it "not for my collection" - they're too bloddy dodgy!

          Mike

          Comment


            #6
            Hi guys,

            Thanks for the replies. When I first saw one of these a few years ago, my hunch was the same as yours.....fake. Then I handled one at the SOS 2 years ago and felt it confirmed by suspicion that they were fake, the quality of the obverse design was poor, but the reverse setup was believeable and the base metal was acutally of a higher quality than used with wartime CCCs. Then, Frank found some PABs marked for MH and was pretty convinced they were originals. He was planning on featuring them in his PAB book, and he felt pretty comfortable with them. That made me start to think hard about my thoughts of these being fake. Also, like Don stated, if these were fakes, why wouldn't we see more of them.

            Despite all this, these MH CCCs are 100% fake. No more quessing about these as I discovered something very funny as I was researching the book. The obverse design as well as the reverse die used to make the MH fake is the same that can be found with the much more common FLL fake that has been floating around for years. Same crappy obverse strike, same base material, same reverse die characteristics, same fake back-plate crimping, the only difference is the marking on the reverse. The MH CCC is from the same neferious characters who are making the FLL fake AND the F&BL fake.....all sharing the same dies and tools.

            See the following comparison. Firstly, I'll post the MH CCC. Its not the one from Weitze's site, but a similar one found on another site recently.
            Attached Files
            If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

            New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
            [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
            Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

            Comment


              #7
              Reverse
              Attached Files
              If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

              New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
              [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
              Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

              Comment


                #8
                Closeup of the obverse.
                Attached Files
                If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                Comment


                  #9
                  Notice these pecular cut marks on the obverse. Also note the unique eagle featured on the MH CCC. It is a unique design, not used by any original CCC maker.
                  Attached Files
                  If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                  New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                  [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                  Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Now here is the obverse of the fake FLL CCC that is pretty common.
                    Attached Files
                    If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                    New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                    [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                    Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Closeup of the obverse. Compare this to the MH obverse in post #9, same type of cut marks in the same locations. Even the cut marks across the acorns are similar. The obverse is not an identical match, but very, very close and no doubt made by the same fakers and by the same process.
                      Attached Files
                      If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                      New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                      [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                      Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The reverse of the fake FLL CCC. Note the same die characteristics at the bottom of the back-plate area, much thicker on the left side than on the right side. This is exactly the same as found on the MH CCC and the same exact die was used (only chaning the maker mark up). Also note the long thin idented crimps used on both fakes.
                        Attached Files
                        If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                        New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                        [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                        Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                        Comment


                          #13
                          As far as the base metal goes, these are made from a high quality alloy, much like tombak. Its for this that many collectors get burned by these fakes because they are truly made with a higher quality metal than originals. Deejay, we have period documentation from 1944 that recommends the CCC in silver be made of nickel silver and that the CCC in gold be made from tombak. This is almost 2 full years after the CCC was introduced, so it can be infurred that up until that point in the war, CCCs were being made in something of lesser quality......like zinc. This is confirmed in the CCCs we collect today as they are all zinc except for the special presentation CCC in Gold. While the possibility exists that this recommendation was followed to some extent by a few manufacturers and that a truly tombak or nickel silver CCC may exist somewhere, IMO this recommendation came too late in the war and was probably not disseminated to the various manufacturers before the war ended. No tombak or nickel silver CCC has ever been found to my knowledge. Every single CCC out there is zinc, with the exception of GWL, who made a limited supply from aluminum and then ofcourse the special golden CCC. Its possible one might turn up one day, but this is certainly the exception and would have to be scrutinized heavily for authenticity.

                          Tom
                          If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a little

                          New Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
                          [/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
                          Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Excellent work Tom,

                            Thank you for your research! They all lead to the same mud puddle. Amazing.

                            Robert

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Here is a fake F&BL to compare with
                              Attached Files
                              Regards
                              Hans N

                              Don´t throw away your fake WB´s! Get in touch with me.
                              I collect them for reference purposes for the benefit of the hobby (for the right "fake" price of course).

                              Comment

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