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Some old cataloges

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    #1

    Some old cataloges

    Not long ago there was a discussion about "nazi"-items being forbidden in post-war Germany and - so the thought process - no companies in Germany would dare to produce/sell such medals.

    From an esteemed collector friend here in the USA I got a bunch of old cataloges which I find very intriguing. I did alrerady post some letters from Mr. Schiffer to Florida, now here we have his catalog form January 1960 - well after 1957.

    "made up" is IMHO a bad translation into english of "hergestellt" which in turn means manufactured. Prices are in US$!
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    #2
    The first page already goes to the core of the issue. It is possible to buy everything - up to the Golden Diamonds (price upon request, I guess).

    Even the first and second model of the Grand Cross!
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      #3
      As I alreasdy pointed out earlier, Mr. Schiffer was located in Mühlenrahmede in Westfalen, about 5-6 miles form the company S&L in Lüdenscheid. It might mean nothing at all, but it makes one think.

      I don't need to post more. All medals are available!
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        #4
        Now one could say this was only one guy serving the USA. But the famous "Ordensammlung" of Frau Anneliese Klietmann also had something to offer. Unfortunately the catalog is not dated, but it went to the USA.
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          #5
          Frau Klietmann also has the fulkl range and some american collector was even inquiring about the prices for thr Diamonds and Golden Diamonds, 840 resp. 1200 DM, whic - if the catalog is from the late 50's is about $ 210.- resp. $ 300.-
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            #6
            The last catalog page even mentions that one can have "upon request" special made medal bars, ribbon bars and miniature pins and combinations thereof.

            One does not make a catalog like this one if one only has one or several of each ....

            It is very telling that she offers the RK, the oaks and the swords in silver or silver-plated.

            All this was available for a very long period of time and the target market was the USA, most and foremost.

            Some of theses pieces found their way in early collections. With early I mean early to mid 50's. And since they were in 'early' collections, some of the pieces are now deemed real.

            Dietrich
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              #7
              Great stuff Dietrich and a special thanks to the collector who shared these very telling pieces of (dealer) history!

              The assertion of 'vet obtained', 'very old collection', 'I've had it for.....' really pale and as rightly shown one needs to examine pieces very, very closely!
              Regards,
              Dave

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                #8
                But we should not forget that some of this could very well be out of genuine storage and left overs. This might very well be true for some of the regular meadls, I doubt it for the RK and the Grand Cross, however.

                Also, some of this might be easily detectable and is already deemed 'fake' by now.

                My point was also about the sheer quantity that was and is around!
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                  #9
                  Very true....BUT considering the 1960 date we have 15 years (a reasonably long time) to exhaust the 'original' left-over supply and then the collector demand for additional examples...

                  I agree that the common badges, medals etc may have lasted longer as left over old stock but not so the higher awards! They had to be produced as demand suggested!
                  Regards,
                  Dave

                  Comment

                    #10
                    As famed firearms authority and a man with a world class appetite, Arnold Chernoff, when asked at a famous restaurant what he'd like to order off the menu, he replied "I'll have one of everything." True story according to those that were there.

                    Looking at these very interesting catalogs and the prices shown I'd reply the same way.

                    In all seriousness, something else to consider.

                    Was the availability of these items still top heavy with original pre 1945 examples at that time? I think that a span of 15 years and the amount of collectors active then wouldn't warrant a huge production of repops we see today.

                    So, maybe most of these items were indeed left over stock. If we look at the parallel field of edged weapon collecting; we know that there was literally tons of left over completed daggers and eventually, original parts daggers, assembled after the war, that ended up in collectors hands.

                    Further, look how often a particular items passes between numerous collectors today.

                    For instance.

                    If 5 collectors owned the same piece over a period of several years. That wouldn't equate to the population of that collectable being 5 times greater than the single item that has circulated 5 times. Granted, prestege items such as the higher grades of the KC and other unavailable items such as the Grand Crosses could only be had as repops. So my example may not apply to those narrow parameters. That still leaves us with the question as to how many of the higher end awards were indeed reproduced after the war?

                    Food for thought.

                    Tony
                    .
                    An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

                    "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Thanks Dietrich - as usual a credit to the collecting community.

                      The fact that collector copies of even lower grade items have been assimilated into long standing collections and museums from as early as the 50's is certainly a worrying thought.

                      Does anyone have an opinion on what exactly the sentence below is supposed to mean?

                      To para-phrase... 'Made for the collector according to published and non-published official documents' ... simply makes no sense to me.
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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Biro View Post
                        Does anyone have an opinion on what exactly the sentence below is supposed to mean?

                        To para-phrase... 'Made for the collector according to published and non-published official documents' ... simply makes no sense to me.

                        Probably just differentiates between 'official' published wartime works like Doehle's books, as against the internal memos that circulated around government departments.

                        These catalogues bring back old memories. Thanks for posting them.

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                          #13
                          I hope Detlev is not using this source for his every friday amazing list of III Reich items.

                          Best regards,
                          Adolph.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by ADOLPH View Post
                            I hope Detlev is not using this source for his every friday amazing list of III Reich items.

                            Best regards,
                            Adolph.


                            We never know , do we?

                            Tony
                            An opinion should be the result of thought, not a substitute for it.

                            "First ponder, then dare." von Moltke

                            Comment

                              #15
                              That's neat! Thanks for posting the catalogues.

                              Comment

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