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honor goblet value

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    honor goblet value

    There is a 835 silver honor goblet to a general major who was also an oakleaves recipient on this site:



    http://www.johnsonreferencebooks.com/cataloguemain.html

    As a general question, is this price rather high for such a goblet, or reasonable for a generalmajor who is also an oaks winner? I have a 835 goblet to a bomber pilot who was a RK winner. Any ideas of the current price of a goblet such as this these days? Thank you for any information.


    Catalogue


    Luftwaffe Honor Goblet (Ehrenpokal) & Photograph Grouping belonging to Oakleaves to the Knight's Cross Recipient Luftwaffe Generalmajor Ludwig Schulz. This superb grouping was originally obtained in Germany from the family of the original recipient, Luftwaffe Generalmajor and Oakleaves to the Knight's Cross recipient Ludwig Schulz. Silver goblet is maker marked, "Joh. Wagner & Sohn" and silver content marked with half moon, crown, "835" and stick figure eagle on the bottom of the goblet which shows only light age patina to the pebbled finish of the bowl with one tiny ding to the lower edge of base, but no dents or depressions. Obverse of the bowl shows two eagles in aerial combat while the reverse bears the 1939 Iron Cross.





    Both of these designs as well as the oak leaves on the stem of the base are in repoussé relief. On the plain band below the oak leaf is the recipient's name, rank, and date of award, "Major Ludwig Schultz am 8. 7. 40 ". Around the circumference of the base in repoussé relief are the words, "Für Besonder Leistung im Luftkrieg" (For Outstanding Achievement in the Air War). The pokal, with the date "8. 7. 40" is one of, if not the first, Pokal awarded. It is believed that only 240 Oakleaves recipients also received the Ehrenpokal.. Generalmajor Schultz was born in Lissa near Possen on 04 August 1896 and, as a Major commanding I Gruppe Kampfgeschwader 76, was awarded the Knight's Cross on 16 August 1940 (97th recipient) for his bravery during a low level air attack on Paris in which, although severely wounded, he took control of the aircraft after the pilot was killed and safely landed the aircraft thus saving the lives of the entire crew. As a Generalmajor, he was awarded the Oakleaves on 19 February 1945 (747th recipient) for his bravery as Kampfgruppenführer of a combat team of Panzer troops and Luftwaffe Officer Candidates from Luftkriegsschule 5, north of Breslau, which eliminated a Russian bridgehead.
    Last edited by art wall; 11-18-2007, 08:38 PM.

    #2
    Well, since nobody else is responding, I would guess a really early Pokal like this, to a famous recipient, would be in the 7-8K range, or perhaps more. I'm still looking for my uncle's Pokal, awarded to Hauptmann Dr. Albrecht Ochs in October 1940 for actions over the Channel.

    Comment


      #3
      Thanks Vince

      I thought that $15,500 was a little high for the goblet, oaks winner or not.

      Comment


        #4
        There is a pokal with more documents and awards than you will usually see, including DKiG, on the estand for the same. A better buy by many orders of magnitude!

        Comment


          #5
          Yes, that is a nice grouping. There is an equally impressive grouping on Weitze's site with documents that is 2,000 euros cheaper. That grouping also has a 835 silver goblet.

          Comment


            #6
            I think the additional bump can be attributed to the recipient being an OL winner. Would you not pay more for his pilots badge or RK if it belonged to an OL winner?

            Comment


              #7
              There are many things that contribute to the value of a goblet. Buy 3 alpakas to airgunners over russia... or buy one early 835 Battle of Britain fighter pilot ace for the same amount (IF you can find one...can you?). Or buy a general's super early goblet that was one of the few oaks winners for a few bucks more. It might be pricey but you have the chance NOW.

              Depends what turns you on more I guess. Some guys are just happy to have a goblet on the shelf. Others get into the details. Then there is the availability factor. Please post a few other oaks winners goblets....or fighter aces (esp BoB) and then we can compare prices.

              Comment


                #8
                Prices

                Gents,

                Have been collecting Honor Goblets for quite some time now and as stated earlier, each one is unique and the type/name/unit of the pilot/air crew member will determine the price. IMO, Mr Johnson's price is very reasonable considering the personality of the individual and his decorations (General Officer and O/L recipient).

                Pictured are four on my eight:

                Stepp--O/L recipient and Rudel's commander. Helped to develop the "kanonenvogel": $17,000.

                Pflanz--RK recipient and Wick's wingman in JG2--$10,000.

                Trenkel--RK recipient JG52 with 137 Kills--$9,000.

                WWI Honor Goblet--at the risk of having my integrity questioned, I will not release his name or show pictures of his log book listing well over 100 combat missions and all his kills,

                Your thoughts,

                MIKE
                Attached Files

                Comment


                  #9
                  Sir,

                  As usual my heart skips a beat whenever I look at any of your collection...

                  Marc

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks

                    Marc,

                    Thank you. I 'feel your pain' when I look at your postings! Sincerely, your photography is the best. Schiffer book?

                    Posted below is the 'total package': Goblet, document, and case.

                    I neglected to point out, of the Goblets posted, first two are '835' and Trenkel's is ALPAKA.

                    MIKE
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                      #11
                      As stated in a previous post, it depends on whether you just want a goblet to display or something more.

                      I have an .835 goblet to a Knight's Cross winner (Herbert Kutscha, 900 missions, 47 kills) that I purchased about five years ago at the MAX from Kai Winkler. The price at the time was $5,500.00. I also received a couple of photos of Kutscha (to include the studio portrait he provided for Obermayer's book - you can see on the back of the photo where it was marked to be cropped for the book), the documents for his EKII, EKI and Pilots Badge and some other documentation. I have managed since to add a case for the goblet, a war-time autographed photo and two post-war autographed photos. I would value the entire grouping now at a price apporaching double the $5,500.00

                      When you consider the desirability of the .835 goblets, the fact that this one was awarded to an oakleaves winner (there can't be many oakleaves/honor goblet combinations out there) and - most importantly - the potential to add to the piece with photos and documentation, $15K isn't out of line.

                      That being said, the grouping Munster has on the e-stand is a great deal if you're not expressly wanting an .835 goblet to a fighter pilot/RK holder (that was a "must" for me, but tastes vary)

                      Reading back over this post, it appears that all I've done was muddy the waters a bit, but it really comes back to where your interests lie. If you want a goblet as a representative piece to fill a space in a collection of Luftwaffe awards, an Alpaka goblet to an aircrew member will fill the bill. If you want something more - in this case, much, much more - I haven't seen a better one around in quite some time.

                      Hope that helps,
                      Skip

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Skip, well said...that's what I and Tim were getting at

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Guide-lines

                          Gents,

                          Would like to offer the following price guide-lines regarding Honor Goblets. However, as discussed, there are many, many variables that determine the final selling price. As a general rule, I have listed what I would consider to be the rarest and potentially the most desirable followed by a basic price guide. Prices and rarity do not include the position/qualification of the air crew member. The prices are derived from the last two years and include recent sales from Niemann, Weitze, Johnson, Thies, and H/H:

                          Rarest:

                          Fallschirmjager
                          Night fighter
                          Day fighter
                          Zerstoerer
                          Fighter/Bomber (Schlachtflieger)
                          Bomber
                          Transport
                          Recon
                          Weather

                          Price guide for '835':

                          Basic: $5000-$5500
                          German Cross recipient: $6000-$6500
                          RK recipient: $8000-$10,000
                          O/L: $15,000-$17,000
                          O/L/SW: $20,000-$22,000
                          O/L/SW/D: $30,000-$32,000

                          With document add $3000-$5000

                          Price guide for ALPAKA:

                          Basic: $4000-4500
                          German Cross recipient: $5000-$5500
                          RK recipient: $7000-$9000
                          O/L: $12,000-$14,000
                          O/L/SW: $17,000-$19,000
                          0/L/SW/D: $24,000-$2600.

                          With document $2000-$3000

                          Once again, I must stress that unit of assignment, theater of operation, campaign participation, association with known key leaders will have a significant bearing on the price.

                          Lastly, the case, arguable much, much rarer than the Goblet should sell for $3000-$3500.

                          MIKE
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                            #14
                            *gulp*

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Sir,
                              Thos are gorgeous, stone mint badges. But you have a glaring hole, and one that can be filled quite economically...Flak.
                              Marc

                              Comment

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