A-frame; opinions please!!

[Michael Kuligowski]

Hi Tom,
first of all thanks for your reply;
i think that your a-frame and mine one are very closely about the manufacture; same web, same thread color (maybe gray?) and same red internal reinforce (press paper?).
Where it cames from ? Has it good source?

Alex

Good point Alex !!!! both frames looks VERY colse in details - almost identical !!! maybe we should compare them step by step...
Tom - where You got Your frame ????

[derspiess63]

Hi Alex,

you've asked for my opinion and so here you go!
First of all sorry for getting back at you this late but I had little time to properly check your pictures but Mike has done the homework for many of us!
I don't have read the rest of the post,not for lack of respect towards other members' replies/opinion but just because I don't like this A-frame at all....there are features that should be there and there are other things which are clearly wrong or,at least, afterthoughts on behalf of improving fakers (which I won't either disclose here or replying to PMs,since amongst us there are a few of the World's better known collectors who hardly if ever give an opinion or a hint,therefore....."what's good for the goose os good for the gander"! ).
Don't go by the books Alex....if you take the books written by crooks the like of De LA Garde,Caravano et al for example, you'll find heaps of fakes portrayed like originals and the same applies to other books where post-war/other armies' items are thought to be WW2 WH-issue!
If you're patient enough to wait for that, I'll post a few detailed pictures(without captions) of a MINT A-Frame and you'll see by yourself!Drop this one and look for another one!A-frames are a mined field in their own right, since un-finished ones and their components have been found by the thousands in Eastern Europe a few years ago(along with web belts,gaiters,rucksacks aso) and sold like that on a few German sites....assembling and completing them with straps,leather fittings,hardware(no rivets though!) and sometimes using original thread is a matter of "look-at-an-original-and-copy"!Further.....many fakes made with genuine LW-issue parachute harnesses were made as well, but are easy detected nowadays even by the less trained eye!
I always stay away from a mint A-frame with Mint(I mean another thing here by 'mint' !)leather hardware,even if it looks 101% genuine;I've got my good reasons and it's only me,so I don't expect anybody to take what I write for carved in stone!
To make a long story short I'd stay away from this one and look for another one to post here and be or !You're paying your hard-earned for that right?Well....let's make dealers and "friends" hard-earn thirs!
FWIW
Manny
P.S.;I'll quote Alex as saying"About the stitching holes on the leather strap, if you look carefully, they never have received the thread (there is no tracks of thread on the holes!)...it's possible that the manufacturer made a mistake to drill the leather in the center of the strap then he retried in a new more central position ! (Even the Germans sometime wrong!) ".....scrap pieces of leather salvaged from other items which remained unfinished for some reason or that were simply badly made were used once again;I'll post the pictures of a 1944 made presstoff carrier for entrenching tool whose leather parts are pieces of saddle fittings with stitching holes and stuff,ditto for something else that struck my attention but which is buried somewhere under half a ton of equipments!

[Michael Kuligowski]

Manny !!
thanks for posting !!!

WELL.. that makes the whole thing more complicated ( I will get crazy here.. )

I bet You are bussy Manny... but can You go thru the whole topic.. and maybe present your point of view on each of our problems here ?? ( take Your time.. - I dont want to push anything)

because if what your saying is true.. then Tom's frame may not be good either IMHO.. that would suck.. - I mean they both looks to have identical construction almost - also kinda red pressed paper stiffer... same webbing... etc...

damn it... thats what we call Confusing thread .. after this discussion will be over - I am going to psychotherapy...

[MP44_tom]

Here a picture of the total a frame which I believe to be original



I have bought it from a militaria dealer here in Holland, and he gave me a life time guarantee (btw, the dealer is a collector himself). I believe the dealer to be reputable, and by the looks and feel of the a frame I believe this one to be original.

To be honest, I love this thread, and although confusing sometimes, it helps me to understand more and more...

It looks like the frame from Alex, but what I read from Manny there are original unfinished frames used to make complete ones, that ofcourse could be the case with Alex's frame.

btw, Michael, I will join you for that session of psychotherapy

Tom
www.mp44.nl

[Michael Kuligowski]

I am going to bed now.. (shiut 4 AM here) but tommorow I will post step by step shots of my 1940 frame...
maybe Tom - You can post pictures of yours after that - so we will have same "shots" to compare.. I hope Manny will post some.. and maybe other members - MGN have few frames I bet... Glenn "Feldwebl".. Patrick.. and others...
we need everyone with real frame hahah

[Patrick Dempsey]

Sorry Mike!

Hello Mike,

sorry for staying out of this thread, my attentions have been elsewhere of late.

Due to my current employment..."transitional period" , i have time free to take some decent shots of things. However, both my frames are entirely webbing-based (the leather strapped ones i have always found a little...problematic mainly due to reasons that Manny has outlined), so their inclusion may be a little less valuable in this instance?


Patrick.

.

PS. As an idea...we really need a thread "pinned" showing current (or older) known repros that are circulating around the market at the moment. Solves the problem of the unease felt at having a permanent online record of originals that could be abused, and gives a helping hand to those considering purchases to check against.
I know you learn from studying originals as opposed to copies but i do think it would be useful....

[Colorado]

I will throw a picture of mine into the mix. The top strap and bag came with A frame. It is 1942 marked.

[Colorado]

backside

[Colorado]

rivet

[derspiess63]

PS. As an idea...we really need a thread "pinned" showing current (or older) known repros that are circulating around the market at the moment. Solves the problem of the unease felt at having a permanent online record of originals that could be abused..................

You've hit the nail on the head Patrick

[Michael Kuligowski]

Well.. before I will post pictures of my frame... (not the one to fake gallery ... I hope... )
...
Jeff... where from is Your A-frame.. ??? to be honest... I dont like it at all... it is a repro IMHO.... - whats the stiffer inside ??? can You post more details please !!!!
sorry for telling You that my Friend.. but it's judgement day for Aframes..

[Michael Kuligowski]

ok.. here we go... - write any comments You can get
Sorry about kinda big pictures - I hope it wont be a problem... there is 10 pics.. they may load quite a while

1. First straight shots - back and front:




2. top straps:




3. bottom hooks:

[Michael Kuligowski]

4. Stamps and middle webbing connection:



5. Rivet (my frame is kinda different - river goes thru all layers of webbing.. notice also square ring - not made of bend wire - but molded steel - early manufacture:




6. paper stiffer:


NOW lest see other frames (especially those with leather parts) and compare !!!

[Michael Kuligowski]

and one more to compare - my friends frame with webbing looking more like Toms frame - dont look at the stiches - they were replaced.. when he got frame it was in poor condition - oryginal thread was rotten.. but the webbing is 100% geniune

[Michael Kuligowski]

and small Summary...
well.. frames I like are:
- Roberts Frame... and mine
Frames that look not bad IMHO:
- Tom's and Alex's..
frame that looks very bad:
- IMHO is Jeff's Frame ( webbing, lether straps - BAD)

Gentleman - up to You pretty much IMO the only serious question we have to answer is: is Alex and Tom's frames are good - science they are almost identical ... hmm...

Sincerely, mike