A-frame; opinions please!!

[Colorado]

Mike - good job. On the upper strap, on that part you don't like the thread, shouldn't that be reinforced anyway? If it is single piece construction, just like the bottom strap, it should have reinforcing fabric.

BTW - Don't like the leather straps. If they are orignal, they are plain equipment straps, not A frame straps.

[Michael Kuligowski]

Jeff !!
leather straps look not bad IMHO...
and I dont feel like I can judge.. - this is just my opinion.. and of course all this maybe just looking for a "hole"... the best way to inspect is to have it in hands... And we can explain all wrong stiching and esatz leather parts by sayin that frame is some quick made up in small factory.... but construction indicates early frame. - up to 1942 I would say... and number "1" problem is webbing on main straps - never saw this kind of webbing in oryginall frame
(damn if somebody will fake this webbin - we are in deep **** )
but if this frame would be offered to me .. with those pictures.. I would not buy it
Cheers Guys !!!

[Alex Ciavaglia]

5. this area is missing two vertical stiches

Hi Mike,
many thanks for your reply.
However, if you watch the pic of an original a-frame printed on pag 103 of 'WW2 Uniforms of the German army' writed by Wade Krawczyk, you can note that the vertical stitches on the rear top base of the trapezium are absent then how they are insignificant to judge fake an a-frame.

About the stitching holes on the leather strap, if you look carefully, they never have received the thread (there is no tracks of thread on the holes!)...it's possible that the manufacturer made a mistake to drill the leather in the center of the strap then he retried in a new more central position ! (Even the Germans sometime wrong!)

About the rivets, they are both of steel and i don't see nothing wrong in their sizes!

I ask to friends of mine who collect militaria from over 20 years if 15 years ago there were fakes like this on the militaria market. Everyone answered me no. There were fakes who were very easy to spot for their features completely differents from the original. Like night and day.

Regards,
Alex

[Colorado]

That is what makes these so hard and scares away collectors. There is not enough standardization during the period and original materials used are still readily available today.

[Alex Ciavaglia]

Any other sincere opinion is welcome.
Alex.

[Michael Kuligowski]

About the stitching holes on the leather strap, if you look carefully, they never have received the thread (there is no tracks of thread on the holes!)...it's possible that the manufacturer made a mistake to drill the leather in the center of the strap then he retried in a new more central position ! (Even the Germans sometime wrong!)

Well Alex.. excuse me but are You trying to say that in the proces of sewing things - they first made holes.. then they were sewing ?? how they did it ?? first machine was maeking holes.. then some poor labourer was putting stiches ?? or they had two machines - one maeking holes.. .second putting thread with laser precision in these holes ???
cmon....

I am confused by these frame.. has good and bad features... I would love somebody tell me whats the true..
and I would be happy to tell You that its oryginall... but right now.. I cant..

help !

PS I will send You link to other fake made in early 90's... (thats the link I tried to post.. but didnt work here.. )

[Alex Ciavaglia]

Well Alex.. excuse me but are You trying to say that in the proces of sewing things - they first made holes.. then they were sewing ?? how they did it ?? first machine was maeking holes.. then some poor labourer was putting stiches ?? or they had two machines - one maeking holes.. .second putting thread with laser precision in these holes ???
cmon....

I am confused by these frame.. has good and bad features... I would love somebody tell me whats the true..
and I would be happy to tell You that its oryginall... but right now.. I cant..

help !

PS I will send You link to other fake made in early 90's... (thats the link I tried to post.. but didnt work here.. )

Hi Mike,
these easy mounting of leather parts (like this one indeed), were made by germans (and every shoemaker now and then) drilling the leather with a tool that i don't know the exactly word in english, then, in a second time, threading a needle on the holes. The manufacture of these little parts of leather were hand made, not using the sewing machine.

Greetings,
Alex
PS: i'd be very curious to watch a reproduction a-frame of 10 or 15 years ago. Please if anyone has something...post it !

[MP44_tom]

1st let me say I think these kind of discussions are great !! they are really helpfull in detecting fakes. This one really made me look into details again

And to begin with, I really don't consider myself to be an expert on A frames... I do own 2 originals, and have seen a few fakes, but that doesn't count I think....

2nd:

To be honest I still think this one is good, although there are some strange features about this one.

The leather strap: I isn't the strap of a fur backpack: I compared them and the A frame's is longer, while the backpack strap has double stiching at both ends.

so what happened ?? field repair ? strap was used on a frame that was damaged and re-used again ? I really don't know, that will be a guess....

Webbing on the big straps look good to me to be honest...., Michael: I really would like to know what makes you think the wide straps are not good.....

Michael's point 4, the stiching on the 2 straps are different, this one is also really strange, I have no idea what to think about it, I see it a bit like a monday morning A frame

point 5 : Michael, what do you mean that there are 2 vertical stiches missing ?

and in my A frame it's also possible to stick my finger in the mess tin strap hole because it's been "deformed" through time


So , again, this is just MHO, and again I'm saying I'm no expert, just some food for thought.

For the right price, I still would like to have this "monday morning" A frame
Tom
www.mp44.nl

[Michael Kuligowski]

hey Tom !!!!
thanks for posting !! I am truly happy that You posted !!!!!!!

my first impression about that frame was - it's a good one - Ask Alex - I sent Him email... AND I ALWAYS trust my first impression.. but......
well.. later I was looking into details - and I found those problem pointed by me

Guys !! can You post pictures of your frames like in post no.13 - with straps pulled out ???


Tom - about webbing - your frame has almost the same webbin like Alex's frame (not yet his.. ?? ).. well - that makes things more complicated .. that would mean that there was at last 2 types of wide webbing used ...- this is my webbing:

[Michael Kuligowski]

I meant those two stiches visible here.. - well.. I guess depends from manufacturer - these stiches were present or not ?!?!?!!?

damnit... I hate these photos.... sometimes I weel like I cant tell if these webbing differs one from another.. my eyes are playing tricks on me...

Tom - How You see this webbing ?? is there difference between mine/Your/Alex frame ?? haha.. really feel like blind - the more I look.. less I can see...

where is Manny ?? where is Michael MGN ?? Cmon guys - need Your help to help ALex in this decision !!!!

I am lining toward my first impression again.... so.. like Tom said... - monday morining frame ?? ... we have to make a post - Aframe gallery.. - and post all pictures of good aframes... on the other hand.. it Would be a reference for fakers too... hmmmm

[MP44_tom]

Hey Michael, I know what you mean, it is still a very difficult subject

Here some more pics of the 2 originals I own
This is the one with leather straps (which looks like the one from Alex)




And the is the "tropical" one



As you can see the stiching method is different. so I guess it depends on manufacturer.

As you can see, there is also difference in webbing......
btw, it also looks very different on the pictures than in reality... the loom lines in the length direction are absolutely there, but it depends on the angle of the picture if they show or not..... last picture looks like wrong webbing, but in fact looks very much like Michaels

Tom
www.mp44.nl

[Alex Ciavaglia]

I meant those two stiches visible here.. - well.. I guess depends from manufacturer - these stiches were present or not ?!?!?!!?

damnit... I hate these photos.... sometimes I weel like I cant tell if these webbing differs one from another.. my eyes are playing tricks on me...

Tom - How You see this webbing ?? is there difference between mine/Your/Alex frame ?? haha.. really feel like blind - the more I look.. less I can see...

where is Manny ?? where is Michael MGN ?? Cmon guys - need Your help to help ALex in this decision !!!!

Hi Mike,
you are a great man!!!
Alex
PS: i still wait the opinion of the Guru expert of this sector... (Manny where are you ? )

[Michael Kuligowski]

Tom - so You have those two frames with different webbin - well - You are the lucky one to see the "real" difference

I am watiting for picture from my friend.. hes got a frame straight from attic.. in poor condition - but I believe it has the same webbing like the frame in question - then things will get easier...

anyway..
what problems left unsolved ??? from my list ???
can we all agree finally that Alexes frame is good and You guys will not crucify my for this "investigation" job ?? hahaha

[Michael Kuligowski]

Hi Mike,
you are a great man!!!
Alex
PS: i still wait the opinion of the Guru expert of this sector...

thanks Alex !! thats kind !!!
we have to help eachother - Wehrmacht Equipment Forum - is the best forum in WA !! hurey !! hahahaha

[Alex Ciavaglia]

Hi Tom,
first of all thanks for your reply;
i think that your a-frame and mine one are very closely about the manufacture; same web, same thread color (maybe gray?) and same red internal reinforce (press paper?).
Where it cames from ? Has it good source?

Alex