ME 262 30mm round??

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Gentlman,

I recently posted on the E-stand a ME262 30mm round and was called out on the piece that the ME262 was not the only plane that used the Mk108 that fired 30mm rounds.

While futhur research I have performed concluded that the their were about a dozen planes that used the 30mm round as well. The distinguishing characteristic for the ME 262 was the at the base of the round it is taper opposed to being straight.

the reason for the tapered end was that on the ME262 this was a hopper (Chute) fed round and was only chute fed on the ME 262.

The other aircraft that employed the 30mm round was belt fed.

So that being the difference between the two types of rounds.

Any follow would be appriciated.

I have attached a pic of the round, please notice how the end is tapered.

Best,
JD

[Daniel Gilberti]

About MK 108

Sometimes, i have a lot of problems for exact understanding question in english language,
-so, different 3 cm was used by germans planes :
3 cm MK 108 (your pic) , different models of bullets was used and mixed, this ammo is allways linked;
Case base was typical one oerlikon evolution from 2 cm becker, mg FF etc...
3 cm MK 101,rheinmétal borsig more impressive 30x 184 b (case longer 184 mm) with primer mechanic, this ammo was in drum magazine..
3 cm MK 103, is the same but with electrical primer, and this ammo is linked :
Especially:
262A-1a & A-2a = 2 MK 108 fixed lower pair 80 rounds by and 2 fixed upper pair 100 rounds
262A-1a/U1 = 2 MG151.20 fixed with 146 rounds in nose
2 MK 103 fixed 72 rounds in nose
2 MK 108 fixed 66 rounds in nose
262A-1a/U3, A5a= 2 MK 108 fixed 80 rounds in nose
262A-2a/U1= 2 MK108 fixed in nose, capacity ???
262B-1/U1(NJG) = 2 MK108 fixed in nose 80 rounds capacity and
2 MK108 fixed 100 rounds capacity in nose too

Source: Flying Gun WWII by AG WILLIAMS and E.GUSTIN
Airlife march 2003
Best regards, Dan
some things on :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mk108/AMMOS/MUNINDEX-001.htm

[Daniel Gilberti]

I have forget the best :

And very Excellent page about Aicraft ammos :
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/ideal.htm
Best regards, Dan

[Matt L]

Hi Joe,

I'm not sure where you got your information about the MK108, but I'm afraid it's all wrong- the MK108 was a belt-fed weapon only. The only German aircraft weapon that used non-belted ammunition was the MGFF and that was drum magazine fed. The MK108s of the Me262 were the standard type and if you look at a photo of the plane with the hatches open, you can see the ammunition chutes quite clearly. The ammunition was stored in large bins in the bottom of the nose and drawn UP into the guns. After firing, the action of the weapon re-seated the empty cases back into the belt link, and together they were dropped from the plane via another chute. A 'hopper' would never work as it relies on gravity to feed, and an aircraft in combat would be moving all over making this impossible. In fact, there have been problems with belt-feeding due to G forces caused by an aircraft's movements in combat.

There was also no distinction between the type of ammunition and the aircraft it was used in. The cylindrical rounds like the one you've posted had no tracer and were standard HE (Mine) shells, the tapered rounds that took the ZZ1589A fuze had a tracer and were HE Incendiary shells. They would have been mixed as only 1 in 3 or 4 or 5 rounds needed to be a tracer. I've seen original belted ammunition that had a 2:1 mix, and I've got a pair of belted rounds like yours (no tracer).

Hope this helps.

Matt

[Daniel Gilberti]

Yes Matt

Yes Matt, you are right, MK108 was allways used with metallic fed belt, just MK101 and MG FF was in drum magazine.But note one no current version of MGFF used by NachtJager used fed belt linked, you can see one on the pic...

Best regards, dan

[Joseph D'Errico]

Thank you kindly,

Matt and Dan, I will have to get back to you on the name of the reference book that I was fed my information from.

So, the 30mm round used by the ME262 was not destinctive in any way? Tapered end was common?
Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon was always belt fed as well?

Last question, are these all that rare?

Thank you for posting the pics as well Great reference, I also have a tracer round that looks identical to the one posted by Daniel.

Thank you again for your help. Just starting to get into this area of collecting. I like the way they bring my displays to life. I also collect professionally built model aircraft, so that is where I have the piece displayed, really brings the display to another level.

Best Regards,
JD

[Daniel Gilberti]

RARE or NO

So, MK 108 ammos are not really rare, in germany, in EBAY.DE
you can easy found one for 30/50 Euros, metallic belt fed is more difficult, for one Bodenfund relics 5 /10 Euros, one new and beautiful 50 Euros ...
For MK 101 and MK 103, it's really difficult, perhaps 100 Euros, and the metallic belt.. no comment ...

Best regards, dan

[merdock]

Hi,
Joseph i was right about the shell on the 262 there is no distinction,i think your getting the feed trays confused[with hopper]Matt is correct they would not work due to the G -forces.
As for there being about another dozen aircraft armed with the 108 thats a little OTT there were only 8 opperational type's armed with the Mk108 ,there was a number of other prototypes armed and flown with the 108 and a small number that were proposed and built but eithervnever compleated or completed and not flown.
The list comprises of opperational types is,
1. FW 190
2.TA 152
3.HE 219
4.BF 109
5. BF 110
6.ME 163
7.ME 262
8.ME 410
there was a couple of types that had guns fitted for trails or as fully functional prototypes.and were flown.
1.HE162
2.JU 188 Ro , + 2x more machines possible.
3.JU 388 V2 flown with guns, V4 and V5 probable.
4.TA 154
5.ME 309 V6
6.AR 440
7.ME 209 V6
8.ME 263 [163 D V1] but not known if armed.
9.Bv 40 but not known if armed
Any corrections most welcome.
Merdock

[Joseph D'Errico]

Thank you again on the help with this piece, as I feel that i am starting to get a feel for its background. As I said this is a new area for me, very interesting as well. I do appriciate your time and help.

Best Regards,
JD

@ Merdock thank you for posting the list.

[Matt L]

Hi Joseph,

No problem- happy to help. Even though I've been collecting ordnance and ammunition for about 12 years now, I'm always learning new things- that belted MGFF round of Dan's for example- I've never even heard of such a thing, and it appears nowhere in any of the references I've collected.

Dan- can you tell me where I might read about the belted MGFF?

Matt

[Daniel Gilberti]

Hem...

For the moment it's difficult to make answer to your question,
i'm himself in research about...Firts time i found a lot of MGFF on belt linked on site of crash from one Dornier 217 N1 6./NJG4
(II/NJG4)... It's Tony Williams who give me the info about MGFF
metallic Belts linkeds was just used by NJG Aircrafts ...
Perhaps these elements are very very rare, perhaps first parts found ...
Now i have just found one Document in Old Waffen Revue, where
we can see the motor systèm used for ... The Text is in german language and i have some problèms for translate, for moment ...



I'm allways searching for datas about this ammo système
Best regards, Dan

[Daniel Gilberti]

Pic of the Gun for NJG


Best regards, Dan

[Joseph D'Errico]

Hello Daniel,


Excellent follow up, what a great education that I have recieved from you and the others. Thank you again for posting some great reference material.

Cordially Yours,
JD

[merdock]

Hi ,
One aircraft that is missing from the above list that i find strange especially as it is credited with the most numorous varients is the JU 88 it was never officially armed with the MK108 which is odd ,unless some were fitted with them on Rustsatzen[field conversion sets] it does not appear to have carried any???

The MK 108 was not a good weapon,it my have had a large capacity shell but the velocity was so low pilots reported seeing the shells in flight and when firring in a turn the the weapon was U.S.
Merdock