Late war SS Panzer Wrap

[90th Light]

The Panzer Funker straps have the SS style tongue but lack the field-grey underside I would expect to see on SS straps ... so you have a SS style top and tongue with a Heer (army) Panzer underside

Ian

Original black backed SS shoulder boards do exist and are appropriate for an SS Panzer wrap. On my computer monitor, the piping on the boards looks to be golden yellow for recon. However if they are lemon yellow then that is ok too.

Thus what they are trying to purport to be is, SS Panzer Recon or SS Panzer Signals boards.

However, it is not the black backing which is the problem. Although putting black on the reverse, does make it easier for the faker by not requiring some field grey. These boards have other issues such as cutting, stitching, finishing and the button holes. It would be interesting to know if they are a floppy or stiff type. Better, clearer pictures of the boards would help,

Chris

[espenlaub]

The Betr Ra wraps are other in construction, the most difference is low quality workmanship and smaller collar, if to compare with other tunics. Also Betr Ra wraps has the same details as used on the M43 tunics

[espenlaub]

here is my liner details of a similar to Betr Ra construction

[Altbier]

1

[Altbier]

2

[Altbier]

3
In my opinion, the material looks not so bad? But the construction?

[Willi Z.]

+1 IMO original wrap. I like some small details which I never seen on fakes.

Radek

I agree. The base wrap looks fine, as I just looked at a LAH wrap I have here. Can't speak about the insignia.

[Felix]

[QUOTE=Scott A. Hess;


Note..the tabs in the above posts are not ALL identical in their execution..there are minor differences.[/QUOTE]

Thats a correct observation. There are several known original style/shape/versions of the RZM em rune tab. The only difference in the threads you posted are that they are all originals compared to the fake sewn on to the panzer wrapper.

//Felix

[Felix]

No that is not the top of the line tabs that I am referring to

The best reproductions are shown in this thread by Gary Wood in post number 308 as being for sale in Italy;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=83489

There are 6 tabs in total in the photo posted, 3 are SS runes and the other 3 are TK's

I think you might be on the wrong hill with your reconnaissance Scott ???

Anyway, the ones Gary shows in post 308 are very dangerous ones indeed. They are executed carefully to a very high standard of shape, straightness, horizontal planes square and embroidery of the thread that have fooled quite a few,

Chris

When they hit the market they confused many collectors and surely fooled a few as well. The fakes series of rune tabs which had an Italian connection of some sort are obvious in design once you have studied them and nothing like any other rune tab shown in this thread.

What disqualifies the panzer wrapper rune tab as an original is the shape of the runes along with other traits. There has been several of these posted during the years. They started to show up around 10 years ago but could be older.

//Felix

[galizien41]

A lot (I use the term loosely) of these wraps, if original, were found with only eagle machine sewn. That being said, I am not sure if this one is original. But often times collectors/dealers added tabs to them to increase value and make them more sellable. I presume the wraps came out of depot with only eagle and then tabs added at company level. The veteran acquired wrappers often times just had the eagle. Maybe an "excuse" for the bad tabs and boards.

My wrapper is differently marked so can not make an exact comparison but only has the eagle originally applied also.

Maybe a picture of the reverse of the eagle sewing? It looks very sloppily done.

Of course you are doing the right thing by vetting the wrap out before purchasing, as there are a lot of the "super" fake wrappers coming out of Europe that are really hard to tell just by photos, using original materials and wool. But these wrappers usually have the correct original insignia applied also to increase favorability and sales.

[B. N. Singer]

...I presume the wraps came out of depot with only eagle and then tabs added at company level...

Factory actually, not depot IMO

B. N. Singer

[galizien41]

Yes that makes more sense. Agreed Factory.

Factory actually, not depot IMO

B. N. Singer

[viva_giulio]

If you can have a good hand.inspection you must not.consider my opinion. These wrap must be handled.
I am not comfortable about the eagle used and how is stitched for a betr. Ra., I would see better the white material which is really different in betr.ra. (from other producers).
In a betr.ra. production, moreover late, I would expect different material used and a certain numbers of hands who produced the wrap.
The back of.collar is not.textbook to but, at the end acceptable with reserve.


But these are just impressions from mobile.

In my memory I have sawn only 1 betr. Ra. Pnz wrap if I had my pc I could show it. I remeber it was a bit strange for standard betr.ra. wrap construction.
Can you give the measure of distance from holes to holes?
Can you measure the opening of internal pocket?

I would make also other questions but not here cause are too much specific and useful for fakers.

[espenlaub]

If you can have a good hand.inspection you must not.consider my opinion. These wrap must be handled.
I am not comfortable about the eagle used and how is stitched for a betr. Ra., I would see better the white material which is really different in betr.ra. (from other producers).
In a betr.ra. production, moreover late, I would expect different material used and a certain numbers of hands who produced the wrap.
The back of.collar is not.textbook to but, at the end acceptable with reserve.


But these are just impressions from mobile.

In my memory I have sawn only 1 betr. Ra. Pnz wrap if I had my pc I could show it. I remeber it was a bit strange for standard betr.ra. wrap construction.
Can you give the measure of distance from holes to holes?
Can you measure the opening of internal pocket?

I would make also other questions but not here cause are too much specific and useful for fakers.

The measures can be different, depends of sizing. The main wrong thing for betr ra- wrong cut, as I've told before. The collar of Betr Ra tunics is unproportionally small to the tunic and it's with rounded edges. The belt support loops is different and the count of support zigzag reinforcements for waist hooks is wrong. The buttonholes panel has wrong count of thread loops which is fastened it, similar to the Heeres example. I didn't have by myself the betr ra tunic, but I had chance to inspect it and I would say, i've never seen such a ugliest cut of wraps with very specific simplified details, however I have 3 of PZ wraps and 2 Stug from different makers, but will not discuss these details in public ( you know the reason). But will gladly help to my friends here.

[90th Light]

The challenge with a "Betr.Ra." stamp in a black SS Panzer wrap




Panzer field jacket, volume 3, Scott Pritchett, Schiffer, 2014, page 24;

" While other SS clothing from 1942 onwards was marked with the stamp denoting manufacture within the SS-Berkleidungswerk (SS-BW) system or the code of the Ravensbruck facility (Betr. Ra.) in particular, research did not substantiate that either mark was used in the black Feldjacket (Endnote 32)

Endnote 32 = Based on research conducted by Bill Brooks and provided the author in a written article, "SS Uniform Markings", 4 October 2011






Now did Scott show all possible SS wraps in that book ?

No he did not but he was very careful not to include any controversial wraps. There is no black SS Panzer wraps shown with a "Betr. Ra. stamp.

If one is going to buy an SS wrap then one would want something that lines up with those shown in Scott's book or Mike Davis has sold on Virtual Grenadier. None have a "Betr. Ra." stamp

So could the beyond doubt "Betr. Ra." stamped black SS Panzer wrap now please step forward so we can make critical comparison with its manufacturing footprints ???

May be a lot more "Betr. Ra." stamped SS wraps have been found since footnote 32 was reported in 2011 ??? I can not say one way or the other. However, I do know that a lot more super-fakes have made their appearance on the market and been improved upon since 2011. Such fakes often have intriguing stamps.



I have also checked Mike Beavers books, Andrew Mollo's references and good data base of Japanese SS collections (1970's to 1990's) and have found no reference or images of a "Betr. Ra." stamped black SS Panzer wrap.

Of course if I have this wrong then I am sure that those who have handled/ seen more will soon correct me. At this stage the research is not backing the wrap which started this thread,

Chris