Division Charlemagne's cup ? Porcelaine de Sevres 1943

[caracciola]

Dear Friend,

Just found this nice boxed porcelaine cup last Sunday.

It was made by famous French Manufacture de SEVRES – and dated : 19.4.43.

On the back is the following inscription :

IMPERIUM CAROLI MAGNI DIVISUM PER NEPOTES ANNO DCCCXLIII DEFENDIT ADOLPHUS HITLER UNA CUM OMNIBUS EUROPAE POPULIS ANNO MCMXLIII

Is there really any connection with French Division Charlemagne as a friend of mine has suggested me ?

Thanks for your comments and visits.

C.

[caracciola]

Division Charlemagne's cup ? Porcelaine de Sevres 1943

Box...

[caracciola]

Division Charlemagne's cup ? Porcelaine de Sevres 1943

Back...

[J. Csernus]

I would say this must be rather some kind of commemorating plate. According to the text (and if my latin knowledge serves me well) in 843 the Frankish Empire was divided into several smaller kingdoms amongst grandsons, and it was reunited/defended by Hitler for all the people of Europe. It's not an exact translation but the meaning must be something similar.

IMO it has nothing to do with the div. Charlemagne, most probably it was a political prize! But wait for the experts

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

toc toc i'm here

Okay, this had been known for decades.

This plate is a commemorative one made in 1943 for the "843-1943" anniversary (843 : the Empire is parted away amongst the three gransons of Charlemagne - i don't see any "positive" input in that event for the 3rd Reich to be honest !).

It was used for diplomatic receptions at the Obersalzberg, and MANY where looted in 1945, especially by the french 2e DB (second armored division of Leclerc).
One plate is presented at the Invalides Museum (check below the pictures i made on September 2012).







One was proposed with a fantasy story on HH 61 if i'm right.
But infact it was due to the lack of study by Hermann Historica, because they send to me a BIG PDF file with various infos in French confirming it was a diplomatic gift mostly found at the Obersalzberg.
I contacted them to have the info modified, but it seemed that it was too late.

By the way, the "Charlemagne" brigade (then division in January 1945) got his name only in late 1944...
First appearance in an official SS publication is an issue of the dutch SS newspaper "Storm SS" in August 1943, talking about the possible creation of a french SS Standarte "Karl Der Grosse". Infact the Waffen-SS started a major recruitment campaign in France, starting from July 1943.
From summer 1943 up to summer 1944, around 2000 to 3000 Frenchs enlisted in the Waffen-SS, with around 1000 fighting in the South-east of Poland during summer 1944 (one of the two regiments of the french SS Sturmbrigade).
Most of those volunteers started their training in the SS-Ausbildungslager Sennheim (Cernay) in the west of Mulhouse, South of Alsace (which was in Gau Baden at the time).

See You

Vince

[caracciola]

Division Charlemagne's cup ? Porcelaine de Sevres 1943

Special thanks to J. Csernus and FrenchVolonteer for their help.

I have just found a few informations on internet about these cups :

FRANK HELZEL
(1)
HIMMLERS UND HITLERS SYMBOLPOLITIK MIT
MITTELALTERLICHEN HERRSCHERN
KÖNIG HEINRICH I. (919-936) UND KAISER OTTO I. (936-973)
IN IHREN NATIONALGESCHICHTLICHEN ROLLEN
IM SCHLUSSTEIL DES ZWEITEN DREISSIGJÄHRIGEN KRIEGS
1914-1945

Pages 35 and 36

"So fand sich in den Trümmern des Anwesens Hitlers auf dem Obersalzberg ein Gedenkteller,
der für verdiente französische Angehörige der SS-Division „Charlemagne“ in 80
Exemplaren hergestellt worden war. Auf der Rückseite steht folgende Inschrift: „IMPERIUM
CAROLI MAGNI DIVISUM PER NEPOTES ANNO DCCCXLIII DEFENDIT ADOLPHUS HITLER UNA CUM
OMNIBUS EUROPAE POPULIS ANNO MCMXLIII – Das Reich Karls des Großen, geteilt von seinen
Enkeln im Jahre 843, verteidigt Adolf Hitler zusammen mit allen Völkern Europas im Jahre
1943.“94 Wenn Symbolpolitisches als „sonderbares, gebrochenes Echo“ des Mittelalters zu
bezeichnen wäre, dann stellen die SS-Division „Charlemagne“95, das „Programm Heinrich“,
das „Unternehmen Otto“ (der Anschluss Österreichs), das zunächst als „Plan Otto“ entworfene
„Unternehmen Barbarossa“ und die Wewelsburg mit „Burghauptmann“ und
„Burgmaiden“ als das geheimnisumwitterte, gigantisch geplante künftige Zentrum des „germanischen
Reichs“ die deutlichsten Momente dieses Echos dar. Im Schatten solcher Traditionsvorgaben
als zusätzlichem sozialen Rahmen geborgen, scheinen in ihrer Lebenszeit begrenzte
Individuen, die auf imperialistische Welteroberung aus sind und ihr eigenes Maß
überschreiten, kaum mehr vorstellbare Verbrechen planen und begehen zu können. Dass es
angesichts der Maßlosigkeit des Angerichteten nichts mehr zu verantworten gab, muss
Himmler von Anfang an bewusst gewesen sein. Denn er hatte in seiner in einer Zahnlücke
seit Kriegsbeginn (!) jederzeit unterzubringenden Zyankalikapsel96 seine treueste und schließlich
am 23. Mai 1945 zuverlässig wirkende Begleiterin in seiner Rolle als flüchtiger Feldgendarm
Heinrich Hitzinger, in der englische Soldaten ihn schnell enttarnten."

And mine is only the third one I see (HH, IM and mine). Maybe not so much were looted ?

Thanks for your visits.

C.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

those "infos" by Franz Helzel are bull****, and again written by someone that had no clue about what he was talking about.

Did you rode what i posted ?
1) This can't be related to the "Charlemagne" (this should dismiss the crap of Frank Helzel, which seemed to be as accurate as the one provided by M. Snyder on his website).

Another factual proof ?

I contacted the Manufacture de Sèvres on May 6, 2011, and i got the next reply on May 16, 2011 by Coralie Coscino, manager of the archives collection.

"Sachez que la Division Charlemagne n'a aucun lien avec l'assiette et sa création"

"Please be aware that the Division Charlemagne don't have any link with the plate and his creation"

2) just in the last 3 years, around 5 plates were sold on the net (many were proposed in France in auctions by vétérans of the 2nd Armored Division).

The only question is actually the number of plates produced. I didn't asked Coralie how many plates were produced, but the two chiffers available on the net/publications are "80" and "93". I think i will have to ask the question to be sure of "rarity" of this plate.

See You

Vince

[Thorsten B.]

About 100 produced pieces is obviously rare and I bet even the first (white) Himmler presentation Jul plate from 1940 was produced in higher numbers.

But while the obvious SS symbolism was almost a guarantee to be destroyed in and after 1945 these Karl der Grosse plates were looted but due to christian symbolism also preserved.

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

i contacted again the Manufacture de Sèvres, hoping that they will enlight us on the number of plates produced. I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers may be infact missing a decimal. To produce "only" less than 100 plates in honor of the 3rd Reich / Führer seemed to be very low... even more if the plates were given to high-ranking visitors at the Obersalzberg as "gift".

See You

Vince