Is this SS collar tab real?

[barqs19]

I have looked, it has nothing to do with laziness, so if you're not going to help let's leave out the snide comments ok Charles Betz? I'm starting to think maybe you guys were the lazy ones since everyone's wanting to scream fire but not help put it out. I've already used the search feature and don't plan on looking through 51 pages of posts. I really don't care that much as I don't collect SS stuff, as a lot of it's fake anyway. I was just wondering what the ringer was when it came to this particular tab. My buddy didn't pay a dime for it so I'll just tell him to throw it away.

I see where someone said "Poor construction" Ok thanks, that's a start, poor construction. The few posts that I looked at when I searched "SS collar tab" where everyone was ooing and awwing over the "originals" looked like complete garbage but then again what do I know. Are the originals suppose to look like crap?

So that being said, no more comments unless it's got something to do with why it's fake. We've already made it clear that it's poor construction, the embroidery is bad, and that it's fake. Anything else? Can someone supply a picture of what an original would look like if they even made an original like this? That would help. Charles I already looked at the links of interest page and I saw a few that kind of looked like this one but again, no explanation, just the mentioning that it was fake. Since you know so much about these why not give your two cents as to why it's bad. What I did notice was that most SS runes are slanted, mine are standing straight up. Would that be a dead giveaway or did they make originals standing straight up?
thank you,
Robert

[C. Betz]

Please Help Me!

"I really don't care that much as I don't collect SS stuff, as a lot of it's fake anyway. I was just wondering what the ringer was when it came to this particular tab."

Here's a quick lesson: Look at the construction of the runes in the original examples. Now compare them to that piece of garbage you posted. Next, turn your tab over. The filler material in the back is called buckram. Now compare the buckram in your tab to originals. See the difference?

By now, if you have done these two tasks, I'm sure you are exhausted. So before you get on your high horse again, I'd just like to remind you that there are decades of experience here, acquired by many hours of intense study by the members of this forum. A great deal of it pre-Internet.

So do yourself a favor, next time try to put a bit more effort in your research, instead of having to be spoon fed the basics.

Charles Betz

[barqs19]

Kind of hard to learn the facts based on photos with no discussion, thanks for finally contributing. I never knew that the back piece was called buckram. As for comparison it all looks the same to me. Guess I better stay away from SS stuff right! I'll step off my high horse when folks get off the bandwagon and start to contribute to the conversation at hand.
thank,
Robert

[Stossgruppe3]

Kind of hard to learn the facts based on photos with no discussion, thanks for finally contributing. I never knew that the back piece was called buckram. As for comparison it all looks the same to me. Guess I better stay away from SS stuff right! I'll step off my high horse when folks get off the bandwagon and start to contribute to the conversation at hand.
thank,
Robert

Most of the members here don't comment for good reason .....
Put yourself in the shoes of the faker and there you have it.
Someone giving you expert advise on what you should be looking for ....
Hey presto ..... A fake tab .... just like the fake tunic from China
Regards
David

PS as already mentioned there is enough knowledge here if you do a search.
I wasn't so lucky. I had to learn the hard way without the internet

[panzer wittman]

Sorry mate but the runes alone are so poorly made that people probably didn't feel they needed to elaborate.
get to know the few basic styles of tabs. If it doesn't fit any of those its a good indicator that its fake.
also id recommend some reference material. For books go for something like angolia or bando/beaver - their books are an excellent starting point.
don't be too disheartened I know I certainly bought some shockers when I started and every single day is a learning experience in this field
regards
jim

[M Bando]

re: details of design/construction

The design of the runes on the tab in question are such a drastic departure from what is normally seen, that it sparked the numerous disparaging comments that were posted near the top of this thread. But then, like some of the drastically unusual runic tabs that ARE real, this begs the question of why would anyone make a tab that looks so obviously different? We've seen runic tabs made outside Germany with cut-out metal runes pinned to the wool and buckram -first time I saw one like that, back in the 1960s, my first reaction was as incredulous as the earlier comments posted on this thread.
I speculate that the tab which is being discussed here was made for an early Hollywood film or else was a sewing exercise for somebody experimenting with tubular type bullion. In wartime B&W films, some pretty crude attempts were made to replicate various German insignia, resulting in things like breast eagles with a giant circled swastika at the bottom, etc. As long as the general point was made of what the insignia represented to the viewing audience, the film mission was accomplished.
For the benefit of the poster, if you examine original runic tabs, you'll see straight edges to the runes and a aligned angle of the runes in relation to the edges of the tab and the runes themselves. Everything in the design is pretty much parallel and symmetrical. The example you posted has mostly curved outer lines on the edges of the runes, giving them a sloppy and undisciplined appearance. Those runes don't even line-up evenly with each other. The beading around the outer edges is also not something seen on any known originals.
Finally the crisscrossed weave pattern of the buckram backing is a drastic design departure from known originals. In this case, it is even a departure from previously known reproductions. The buckram looks like black shoe polish was smeared across it, perhaps to disguise or partially hide the weaving?
The study of runic tab variants has become quite a science and even repro examples of BEVO and raised rune tabs have usually succeeded in getting the shape, angle and outer proportions of the runes correct, but they fail in other details, which are best described using photo images, rather than verbal descriptions.
The crowd of mostly advanced collectors who frequent this board are so accustomed to dissecting and critiquing questionable originals, or well- executed repros, that it is no wonder they react with scorn toward any example which they consider a 'one look repro' being posted. Thus, they feel it is a waste of their time, to post any genuinely descriptive comments.
If you received rude treatment, I want to apologize for that and I hope this partial explanation answers some of your questions. M. Bando

[codytrcollector]

The reason as to why nobody here is elaborating is because even if we did, you Still wouldn't understand. In order to comprehend this stuff, you have to know what to look for, which can't just be put into words. One most view originals, too, to completely understand. It is not hard to find these, either, so please don't give me some pathetic excuse as to why you can't. If you can manage the creation of this thread, you're quite capable of using the search engine, here or on goggle. You could also go to a trustworthy dealers site(if you don't know one, search for reviews), where many original examples can be found.
Question, what entitles you to come on here, ask for a Free appraisal/authentication, and once you received one, one in which you so angrily admit wasn't of your liking, feel it's fine to get an attitude with those who attempted to help you? It's not unlike returning something that was free, and then complaining about it after the fact. Who can be so egotist they can do such a thing? Then, continue to insist that they have been wronged in some way, all awhile still being disrespectful to whom gave them that gift in the first place. It's FREE, if you don't like it, say thank you and walk away!!
However, even with your childish reaction to the other responses, I still am willing to offer you this sir; all of this is very simple, believe it or not. Their are only so many excepted original examples. Their are also plenty of Free websites which show all of these excepted examples, find them. Once you've done that, compare them to yours. Then, and only then, will it become plainly clear as to why your example isn't genuine. We've given you the answer, I think it's fair that you find out why that answer is correct, especially considering the attitude you've displayed here. I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to help someone of your character due impart to fear of it being thrown back in their face.


Further help: If you were to have came on here, receive a answer which wasn't of your satisfaction, then Respectfully ask others to elaborate, all awhile using words such as Thank You and Please, I can assure you many, in time granted, would've been more than willing to be of service to you. Probably would've even posted said examples for you and such.

[barqs19]

Thank you M Brando and Panzer Wittman for contributing to the conversation. It sounds like you have to have a PHD in this field in order to not get screwed. Again, this is why I would never try and start collecting SS stuff. I needed a good answer so as to tell my buddy as to why it was or was not fake. Being that he found it, I'll tell him to chunk it.

Codytrcollector, you're right that if anyone elaborated into too much detail it would go straight over my head. Before getting on here I did what research I could and once I was stumped I decided to look further by posting on here. No I did not know about the search engine on the Wehrmacht Awards forum but even once I started to scroll through the many pages, all of the tabs started to look the same. You have to understand that I am below an amateur when it comes to SS stuff. M Bando pretty much hit the nail on the head and again, thank you. A few more examples from those who screamed fake would have been nice, but like I said earlier, the few "originals" I saw on here looked crappier than mine, so looking at "originals" didn't help without knowing what to look for. I am a participant on other forums and I keep a file folder on my desktop full of stuff in my collection to share with to those who want to learn.

Now to address your other comment

"Question, what entitles you to come on here, ask for a Free appraisal/authentication, and once you received one, one in which you so angrily admit wasn't of your liking, feel it's fine to get an attitude with those who attempted to help you? It's not unlike returning something that was free, and then complaining about it after the fact. Who can be so egotist they can do such a thing? Then, continue to insist that they have been wronged in some way, all awhile still being disrespectful to whom gave them that gift in the first place. It's FREE, if you don't like it, say thank you and walk away!! "

NEVER, did I admit that I didn't like anyone's suggestion. When I was told it was fake I didn't argue, I trust that everyone on here knows a lot more about this stuff than I do, or at least hope so. What I DID NOT like, was that the fact no one could answer the second question, which was " Why is it fake" Everyone kept making comments stating that it was fake, crap, garbage, etc etc. Thanks but we already had that part down pat, now on to the second question. Then I start getting snide comments from C. Betz, so don't sit here and tell me that I'm being disrespectful okie dokie? Apparently you missed the part where I wrote the comment about not posting unless you had something to contribute.


"Further help: If you were to have came on here, receive a answer which wasn't of your satisfaction, then Respectfully ask others to elaborate, all awhile using words such as Thank You and Please, I can assure you many, in time granted, would've been more than willing to be of service to you. Probably would've even posted said examples for you and such."

Apparently you need to go back and re-read the entire conversation. Everytime I made a comment I said thank you, except twice. Also if anyone had planned on posting pics and contributing, it would have happened by now, not by the time this is on the second page which is where it would be had we not kept commenting.

I know folks getting on here and posting the same fake crap everyday probably does get old but don't get so pissy just because you know more than they do. Help them and lead them in the right direction. I always hear the old collectors say that they wish more young people would get into the hobby. Well, they're not going too if you have a grumpy attitude and treat every one of their questions like it's the dumbest question out there. I see this kind of stuff on the K98 forum all the time and even on the bottle forum, but we don't act like an ass to anyone, we try and help as much as we can. However, it seems that every time I take off on another field of collecting, or wonder off into another field to ask a question, I end up having to deal with all the rude "I already know this, why are you bothering us, old timers" on these forums, happens every time. So now that we've acknowledged that it's fake and why it's fake I think we're done here so again, thanks to all those that contributed and to those who didn't next time just stay away.
THANK YOU <~~~~ see it this time,
Robert

[C. Betz]

Hmmmmmmmm.

"However, it seems that every time I take off on another field of collecting, or wonder off into another field to ask a question, I end up having to deal with all the rude "I already know this, why are you bothering us, old timers" on these forums, happens every time. "

Now that's very telling. Ever think the "problem" may be you?

Charles Betz

[barqs19]

Nope, in this case it was you and then later on codytrcollector who is newer than me. I did notice he's alway says he's "quite confused" in most of his posts. You got on here running your mouth which was not necessary unless you were willing to contribute. Then I have someone newer and more confused than me get on here telling me I'm not saying please and thankyou. It's not everyone, just a few that want to act like complete A-holes. Either contribute, or stay away, very simple.

[barqs19]

Here's a good example on how to act when someone gets on here and asks for your advice.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=686682

[C. Betz]

Oh Dear.

"Nope, in this case it was you and then later on codytrcollector who is newer than me. I did notice he's alway says he's "quite confused" in most of his posts. You got on here running your mouth which was not necessary unless you were willing to contribute. Then I have someone newer and more confused than me get on here telling me I'm not saying please and thankyou. It's not everyone, just a few that want to act like complete A-holes. Either contribute, or stay away, very simple. "

Well then, when some one gives you the tools:"One look bad reproduction. Use the Links of Interest feature at the top of this forum; once opened, click on Fake Uniform Insignia link. Also key in "SS Runic Tabs" in the Search function.", you whined about not wanting to look through 51 pages of postings. Well too bad, I'm sure the next time you ask for help here, you will be overwhelmed with responses to assist you. Good luck with that.

Charles Betz

[barqs19]

I did all that, said that I did all that and even replied as to why I wasn't going through all 51 pages. Not once, did I whine. I love how you guys just make up stuff out of the blue. If you knew the answer to the question, then you would have answered like a few members did, instead of acting like I was a bother. You didn't know the answer, but still you had to get on here and talk out of your ass just to make noise. However, I did find where I can edit my ignore list so that'll solve a lot of the problem.

[C. Betz]

Oh My

"If you knew the answer to the question, then you would have answered it instead of acting like I was a bother. You didn't know the answer,.."

I did know the answer and directed you to two sites where; if you had taken the time to seriously (this is the operative word) study the examples shown, it would have been readily apparent what was wrong with your example. You chose not to.

Charles Betz

[D Davies]

Barqs19
After seeing the way you have conducted yourself in this thread.I'm sure you won't be the only one using the ignore facility.