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**InfanterieSammler** · 10-02-2004, 04:14 AM

Fritz,
You are always so polite...My comment regarding the LAH monogramed shoulder boards was for a reason. These shoulder boards were withdrawn from service in 1940/41, and replaced with the embroidered slip on cypher's and stamped metal cyphers for NCO's and Officer's, and as such became 'non-regulation'. Unlike many 'non-regulation' SS items, these should boards seem to have not gone through much of a 'wear out' period, and in fact I'm not aware of any later war photo's that show and LAH man wearing this style of boards. My point being they became, rare if not non-existent during the war, which makes them even more so after the war. Personally, I've never handled a pair which I've felt were original so I can not comment on them, only to say they would be rarer than rare if original. I don't think most collector's realize this.
As for the merits of the item offered, it does present a strange mix. From the photo's I believe the tunic is original, as are the collar tabs, and sleeve eagle, again the boards I'm not qualified to say (and who really is?). Now of course that's only two out of the three pieces of the puzzle, who's to say when the insignia was applied? What is strange though is that by 1942 the SS was no longer relying as much on the Army for finished garmets, so much as for the the raw materials, the SS BW system was up an running at this time. Also this tunic presents a 1942 issue, than why didn't the soldier have access to the correct boards of the time? Further more, why is there a cufftitle that was not introduced into 1943 on a tunic that was produced in 1942, and of course that has 1940 style boards. All these anomalies can be explained away for sure, but this tunic presents a strange mix for sure. Just my thoughts...John

**Fritz** · 10-02-2004, 05:01 AM

John,

yes I am very kind I know.

Well I respect your knowledge and this time you were coming up with precise things that you don't like you with the tunic. I like that very much so others can give their comment on the problems you see.

I need to make clear again that I don't collect fieldgray items or insigina.

I assume that most of the things you have mentioned with this tunic here are worth to discuss.

As for the cufftitle I believe that tunics were issued without cufftitles. As for my knowledge the tunics left the factory with sleeve eagles only or with the lowest rank insignia (ss-mann). Then the cufftitle was attached on unit level most units have had sewing machines. In some cases, you are right, these were sewn to the item by hand.

As for heer tunics in the use by the ss. You are right with your oppinion that the SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungs-Hauptamt has been able to set up a own pretty good working supply system in the early/midwar but:

-The number of SS personal (that required uniforms) has not reached its peak in 1942 (sep. 1 1942 = 236099 men, 141975 of them in combat. In dec 31 1944 almost 900000 men) . So the ss supply system was soon afterwards not able to deliver enough again.

- When Albert Speer enetered the scene he was very eager to stop different supply systems and make one large one out of it. But, he never really managed to do that. The Leiber camo pattern is one example, it was supposed to be used by the Heer and the SS.

As for the other things my knowledge is too weak so I better shut up now

Cheers

Fritz

**Panzer** · 10-02-2004, 08:32 AM

Actually I have examined some LAH straps that were 100% original...both this pattern and the earlier scrolling pattern. One was in a photo album from an LAH veteran and several sets came from a superb collection in Europe....which as well as many racks groaning with uniforms contained an amaziing reference of insignias:

Nothing in life is 100% certain...not even getting up tommorrow....but I personally feel on looking at the picture available that the straps are correct. The assumption that they were done away with completely in preference for the slides is in my opinion incorrect. Can you imagine any NCO of the LAH staff in Berlin working in the Reichs Chancellery with slides on....not a chance. And where is a copy of the order stating that no more straps with cyphers were to be manufactured after the introcuction of the slides? The mention of a "wear out period" is also totally irrelivant. The "wear out period" for the Schirmütze Alter Art fur Offizier" (the crusher) was supposed to be 1942 and they were in clear evidence until 1945. Just one clear example of wear out being ignored. I am sure someone like Robert Noss with his fine photo collection can supply a picture of these straps being worn later in the war (I will try and find the time tommorrow....but my timeis very short right now). But to say that such boards could not be worn so late is nonsense when one can find pictures for example of army soldiers wearing Heer pointed end straps with no waffenfarbe (pre-war) in a POW pen in 1945 and on an M44 tunic! It is always possible...one must remain open to the many variations and situations encounted.....not everything is "by the book". not to mention that straps are removable and who can ever say if they are not replaced?

As to the assumption that by 1942 the Waffen SS was no longer relying on Wehrmacht channels for garments is also totally incorrect. It is clear by photographic and documentary evidence that the SS Bekleidungswerke could NOT supply even 50% of the required needs for the Waffen SS.....and that Wehrmacht stocks were in use right until the end. Sorry but his is indisputable.
Ok......nearly midnight and off to bed! Cheers, Wade K.

**gew98** · 10-02-2004, 11:37 AM

m

Myself being no expert at all on cloth/uniform items of the second war, let me add this to the fray. I know from my personal US Army experiance that older patterns of insignia were reused by old salts on new uniform issues simply as a matter of showing pride of sorts. When new "cheaper" patterns of badges/cloth insignia did turn up the older often more qualitative items were retained by these fellows and applied to new uniforms as they were issued to them - utility and dress. I new a couple 'old farts' that had the crossed rifles infantry collar tabs on their class A's that were the crossed 1903 rifles - not like the muskets collar device I got issued.
That being said I would imagine german soldiers then little different in their doing this - sort of like the Iron crosses with the added 1939 device.
But in all I have small faith in legitimate german cloth/uniform items and helmets of the WW2 era anymore.So much blatant fake filth has turned up at shows and like outlets to procure same....you almost have to have access to a fellow longer standing collector's collection to even avert the possibility of getting stuck time and time again for big dollars !.

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