Need to discuss this so called "NS/SS" wood Estand item

[Michael Fay]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=655789

This item for sale in the Miscellaneous Third Reich Thread needs to be discussed:
The Problem I am discussing is specifically with the MISLEADING description provided by the seller .
The description given for this so-called “NS/SS” candle- holder is not true and misleading .
The SS book and page cited to vaguely prove this item is in any way associated with the SS book’s content (description of SS ceremonies) is not correct.
On page #36 in the The 1st edition of “Die Feier” there is no mention made of ANY Ingrune candle holder.
I have this book and the 2nd edition. As such I can simply turn to the page cited to check for correctness.
Instead there is a description of a Life rune and a Ing rune to be decorating “The main wall of the ceremonial space along with greenery and flowers”
The only candle- holders described (on P#36) for weddings as well as the only candle-holders prescribed for weddings on this page are Julleuchters!
As an aside the Ingrune symbol mentioned on page #36 is specifically described as being standing (vertical) as opposed to lying sideways(horizontal) as the item for sale is…if it can even really be described as an Ingrune-which is also debatable (although here it gets subjective-being in the eye of the beholder’s wishful thinking).

As most will not have this edition , I am posting mine to felicitate immediate proof of my claims.

Below is the Exact Description as posted in the MISCELLANEOUS THIRD REICH ITEMS E-Stand

“Dear cultural collectors,

Here I offer an outstanding period wedding candleholder out of my collection for sale.
The piece itself represents - masterly carved - the Ingrune, due to the SS-booklet "Die Feier" (First issue, page 36; published via the SS-Hauptamt by RF-SS Heinrich Himmler) one of the three officially specified germanic runes representing the wedding ceremony and the tightness of love between the couple, between man and woman.

The octagonal shape of it´s ends reminds strongly of the SS Allach logo and is - among other elements - typical for period composition.

The piece itself is in great original and completely untouched condition - the wood bears a lovely patina which adds to the character and beautiness of this delightful cultural item.

Length is 28,5 cm - height is 14 cm.

Price including trackable DHL shipping is 155 Euros.

Payment via Paypal or IBAN bank transfer. “

[Michael Fay]

When a seller refuses to address estand discussion

I wonder what the protocol is when a seller refuses to step up and answer a discussion of item being sold on Estand ?

[Totenschmiss]

There is no protocol for that, sadly. At this point we are all better off ignoring said offender. Any mention, even this one just feeds the his fire. His goal does not truly seem to be to sell, cheat, convince, correct or enlighten. Just to antagonize. And you are one of his main targets. No amount of evidence or logic or proof is going to stop it. Stop feeding him and he may very well wither. Or continue to present very good solid historical facts and you will be the one ignored while he sits at home and chuckles at our expense. Is that what we want? Enough already.

[Chris Boonzaier]

"Now this beautiful period piece can be yours including DHL shipping for only 95 Euros"

Haha... Thorsten's walk through the woodpile is always worth reading. Him on a Militaria forum is a bit like a Scientologist showing up at the vatican and wanting to choose the new pope...

[Totenschmiss]

Haha... Thorsten's walk through the woodpile is always worth reading. Him on a Militaria forum is a bit like a Scientologist showing up at the vatican and wanting to choose the new pope...

That we can agree on !

[Michael Fay]

There is no protocol for that, sadly. At this point we are all better off ignoring said offender. Any mention, even this one just feeds the his fire. His goal does not truly seem to be to sell, cheat, convince, correct or enlighten. Just to antagonize. And you are one of his main targets. No amount of evidence or logic or proof is going to stop it. Stop feeding him and he may very well wither. Or continue to present very good solid historical facts and you will be the one ignored while he sits at home and chuckles at our expense. Is that what we want? Enough already.

Actually, this is about the item.
Surely you dont mean this Seller gets special dispensation over all other sellers to misrepresent items he is selling Estand, because as you say this seller wants to "antagonize." This amounts to rewarding bad conduct.
I would argue this seller needs to be held to the same standards as everyone one else on WAF.

[Totenschmiss]

Totally agree Michael, he should of course be held to the same standards. But hasn't it been proven that he isn't going to be? Do you really think another of your posts will change that? You've had dozens, all of them historically accurate, logical and concise. And what has happened? Nothing. You waste your time and energy. Look at the other thread he is the main topic of, he actually has defenders! Hard to believe but true. And as I said his goal doesn't seem to be to sell, its to garner attention. And you are ( now me as well ) simply feeding that. Its what he really wants. He is taking from you Michael. Taking your time, your effort your best of intentions. And your allowing him to do it. To me thats worse than taking some fools hundred bucks that he gladly wants to pay for a wooden plate. So if the forum wants to allow him to continue to do so, thats on them. The rest of us shouldn't allow him to feed his ego by taking our time and effort. Thats the point.

[Michael Fay]

Totally agree Michael, he should of course be held to the same standards. But hasn't it been proven that he isn't going to be? Do you really think another of your posts will change that? You've had dozens, all of them historically accurate, logical and concise. And what has happened? Nothing. You waste your time and energy. Look at the other thread he is the main topic of, he actually has defenders! Hard to believe but true. And as I said his goal doesn't seem to be to sell, its to garner attention. And you are ( now me as well ) simply feeding that. Its what he really wants. He is taking from you Michael. Taking your time, your effort your best of intentions. And your allowing him to do it. To me thats worse than taking some fools hundred bucks that he gladly wants to pay for a wooden plate. So if the forum wants to allow him to continue to do so, thats on them. The rest of us shouldn't allow him to feed his ego by taking our time and effort. Thats the point.

Well explained.
But, what about the newbie who knows nothing about it and think s WAF is tacitly approving of fake/misrepresented items by total silence? That is not in the spirit of the WAF I believed in.
What about the collector who knows their stuff and hates to see this area of the hobby ruined by false descriptions.

Now...my thread is about this item.
And now the deafening silence from the seller.

Funny thing happened...I got told off by a member on another thread to start a discussion thread on this item if I can prove it.
Funny thing is I have this thread right here started a few days before.---And I proved it all right.

One last thing Totenschmuss,
I can assure you this SPECIFIC thread does not amuse or feed the seller in question. The silence is deafening.

[petopoint]

Go Michael

Count me as another that appreciates Michael Fay's dedication to due diligence.
Though I personally view the aforementioned sellers claims and exhortations with a healthy, skeptical view from my cynics eye. I believe he's doing the newer members a service in regards to Fair Play and historical accuracy.

[Minnesinger]

Very informative post about this dodgy item. Since far from everyone has access to 'Die Feier' you have once again proven yourself an invaluable resource in this narrow field of collecting. You also checked the 2nd edition of above named publication to see if there was a typo in the description. That is above and beyond and what makes this forum great.

[Totenschmiss]

Very informative post about this dodgy item. Since far from everyone has access to 'Die Feier' you have once again proven yourself an invaluable resource in this narrow field of collecting. You also checked the 2nd edition of above named publication to see if there was a typo in the description. That is above and beyond and what makes this forum great.

Absolutely agree, outstanding work!

[Michael Fay]

Cowardice?

5 days and seller is refusing to answer. Cowardice?

[Robert Jones]

I can't predict what, if anything, it might accomplish but I reported the post as potentially fraudulent advertising via the link provided.

[Gary Wood]

5 days and seller is refusing to answer. Cowardice?

Michael,
He does not have to answer any questions and members goading him will only get themselves into trouble.

However in that period he has not provided any counter evidence to yours so as such I am going to remove the sales thread as the claims of the sellers description are not proved.

REMEMBER:

What you all need to do is PROVE 100% with facts;

Items are fake

They are not as described

Thank you

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Just a thought from the artistic aspect of this "wedding candlestick"... please dont misunderstand me, I am in no way a Homophobe.... but as both parts to this entwined thing are the same.... it does kinda look like homo-erotic modern art.... is it maybe SA instead of SS?