How rare are REAL SS Dot Pattern Panzer Wraps?

[robs]

Now that WAF is speeding again, I found a thread for this wrapper, from couple years back, discussed here;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=478061

[90th Light]

T

I wish to all the wrapper is OK, they are really sexy indeed... but the following...

"No other dealer in the world who is serious would ever answer someone like that when something is sold by another dealer, if he does not have some special agenda. It probably gives all serious dealers a bad taste in the mouth and makes your comments very little weight."

... is really worrying?

We saw the rant in the forward of Hüskens new books about "internet experts daring to question the knowledge of established dealers!"...

If we take the above... a "dealer omerta"... then we can assume the only one a collector can rely on is another collector, because dealer honor says you cannot badmouth the piece of another dealer? Scaaaary!

Hello Chris,

here is the pragmatic take on this;

It is an established "ethic" ( to quote Michael ) that one professional does not put down, slander or liable another professional. Now if Peter and Michael were members of a professional group such as Lawyers, Engineers, Medicine, Dentistry or Teaching not to mention other examples. Then if one professional tried to discredit a fellow professional without good reason, they would be liable for damages caused and open to the profession's discipline procedures especially if the action was motivated by self gain.

Now if you do find that a fellow professional is not acting within the boundaries of the profession or bringing discredit on the profession then you have a duty to report to the powers to be.

So this raises the question, are dealers in German Militaria real professionals and can they be judged by such professional ethics ?

or are they salespeople like cars sales or real estate who are not held in such high professional esteem by the public at large. True sales-groups tend to have a culture of self regulation clouded by all sorts "tricky-dicky" along the way.

We need to answer this before we over-indulge in a moral crusade.

The other question begging a conclusion, has Peter actually done anything wrong ? Is the SS wrap a fake or not ? Has he been rightly or wrongly called out by Michael and the other doubters or have they gained publicity and self promotion at his expense ?

Chris

[Scott A. Hess]

T

Hello Chris,

here is the pragmatic take on this;

It is an established "ethic" ( to quote Michael ) that one professional does not put down, slander or liable another professional. Now if Peter and Michael were members of a professional group such as Lawyers, Engineers, Medicine, Dentistry or Teaching not to mention other examples. Then if one professional tried to discredit a fellow professional without good reason, they would be liable for damages caused and open to the profession's discipline procedures especially if the action was motivated by self gain.

Now if you do find that a fellow professional is not acting within the boundaries of the profession or bringing discredit on the profession then you have a duty to report to the powers to be.

So this raises the question, are dealers in German Militaria real professionals and can they be judged by such professional ethics ?

or are they salespeople like cars sales or real estate who are not held in such high professional esteem by the public at large. True sales-groups tend to have a culture of self regulation clouded by all sorts "tricky-dicky" along the way.

We need to answer this before we over-indulge in a moral crusade.

The other question begging a conclusion, has Peter actually done anything wrong ? Is the SS wrap a fake or not ? Has he been rightly or wrongly called out by Michael and the other doubters or have they gained publicity and self promotion at his expense ?

Chris

Chris, I understand what you're saying. You draw a distinction between professionals, And those practicing practicing a "profession". Being an attorney myself, I would never badmouth another in attorney in front of his client, I'd have to look up whether not that indeed is a violation of ethical standards, but it just is something that is not "professional". As to whether or not dealers are in a profession, I'll let others make their own call on this. If you consider making money, or making a living living a profession, then in fact everyone would be a "professional". To allude to your own points, there is in fact no professional code of honor ethics or other standards which one can't point to in collecting Militaria in general, none which I am aware of, and indeed The "Max" dealers themselves can be seen with questionable and Obvious reproduction items for sale at any of the military shows I've attended. I have always been of the opinion that most If not all dealers were at some point no lives collectors themselves, and chose to Pursue a living dealing in the sale of these items.
I certainly hope you do not include me within those you consider "Doubters who have entered the fray in order to promote themselves" And gain some sort of publicity. I have no ego here to protect no books to write, And no one need follow any of the advice and/or opinions which I have given.
Whenever an item is posted Which I may have concerns with, it is in and of itself a self educational experience, is I find myself reviewing studying and Looking over items with a finer eye in order to gain additional insight into their construction materials workmanship and other points of interest which I may find. This, is a learning process, And that is in the end with this forum is all about. Others may cast doubt for undisclosed reasons, however I am not going to speculate as to what those reasons are. I do trust and value the opinions of the individuals who have weighed in so far, and that is why I have found this piece such a difficult item to review, The other option is for people to simply remain silent, which I do not think is of benefit to anyone. Those are just my thoughts.

[Fritz]

I certainly hope you do not include me within those you consider "Doubters who have entered the fray in order to promote themselves"

I, for one, wouldn't.

Cheers

[Arran]

This item appears to have completely divided the experts in opinion. Some very good points have been made, mostly by those who are open to it (the detractors are, as usual, somewhat cryptically tight-lipped about specifics). It could be accepted, then, that any reasonably informed person might assess this item as original, no? Under these circumstances I think that using this item to attack Peter's credibility is completely unacceptable. Furthermore, I don't care what "profession" you're in, but slagging the competition always comes off as somewhat petty and, well...unprofessional. Just my two bits...

[Totenschmiss]

There is no honor among thieves. Professional ethics in this hobby, are you serious?

[Scott A. Hess]

There is no honor among thieves. Professional ethics in this hobby, are you serious?

The only ethics there are are those one brings to the table individually. Buy the piece. Not the story. Rely on your own judgement and knowledge, encompassing as well what those you trust share with you. As a wise person once told me try to buy pieces such that when you wish to sell, the only question you need answer is "how much". If you don't know what your buying, don't buy it, a lesson I learned the hard way, from those I once trusted.

[Chris Boonzaier]

"It is an established "ethic" ( to quote Michael ) that one professional does not put down, slander or liable another professional. Now if Peter and Michael were members of a professional group such as Lawyers, Engineers, Medicine, Dentistry or Teaching not to mention other examples. Then if one professional tried to discredit a fellow professional without good reason, they would be liable for damages caused and open to the profession's discipline procedures especially if the action was motivated by self gain."

I see what you saying... who has not gone to doctor 2 for a second opionion, and although he voices a totally different opinion, he at the same time defends what the 1st doctor said , inspite of it being obviously wrong.

Not badmouthing folks with no reason is good for any person, not only professionals, at least, thats what i thought...

What gets me is the implication that dealers should back each other up when faced with the unwashed public.

It seems like a Omerta/Honor amongst thieves kinda philosophy..... which i hope none of the dealers on the thread really believes?

Is the implication that if you open a website, you are then bound to close ranks with Chuck Snyder and the guys from pieces of history, because you are now a dealer as well?

[Chris Boonzaier]

A last thought.... When do Ethics amongst professionals begin to kill off dealer credibility amongst collectors.....

I have never been to the MAX, but over the years have seen many threads full of smirks and sniggers at the "efforts" of the dealer/promoters to police the crooked dealers at the show (not all of course!!).

Maybe some will remember when the BDOS wanted to do a "fake of the month" in its magazine.... the project was apparently crushed by dealers... and the dealer who was going to do the articles was mentally bitch slapped behind the scenes (or so i heard... hearsay for the lawyers ;-) )

[Ian Hulley]

What gets me is the implication that dealers should back each other up when faced with the unwashed public.

Chris, you mean like they did with the Detlev tuxedo clasp fiasco ? 'Respected dealers' ... folks who should know better just walking on by allowing the great unwashed to be ripped off.

Ian

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris, you mean like they did with the Detlev tuxedo clasp fiasco ? 'Respected dealers' ... folks who should know better just walking on by allowing the great unwashed to be ripped off.

Ian

Hi,

I think that was Kai Winkler? sure, fantastic example... keep your mouth shut as long as he screws the collectors... but bring out the artillery when he tries to screw another dealer...

[Chris Boonzaier]

I dont want to hijack the thread, it is about the jacket, but that Omerta thing just bugs me...

[Ian Hulley]

Yes of course, sorry. Honest Kai

[Peter v L]

I dont want to hijack the thread, it is about the jacket, but that Omerta thing just bugs me...

You already did......

But my English is probably to bad for you to understand...........

If you re-read what the comment was about...... it was not about originality.

It was about the condition about an item. I have never before on this forum encountered a comment from another dealer that he think the condition of a item is not good enough for someone to buy, he should rather buy an item in better condition, and preferably from the dealer making the comment. That is what I mentioned.

Then usually dealers do not comment about other dealers item for sale on a public forum. There is naturally no internal rule they can not do so, I have myself a couple of times but I try not to give an opinion about an item if I have not had it i hand at some time or it is so obviously bad more or less anyone can see it as pictures are just pictures, they do not always tell the whole story. It is a free world and a free forum anyone do what they want, but I don´t down talk other dealers items to try to make a sale of my own on a public forum, that was the consensus of my post.

(I do down talk them otherwise as much as I can though )

I think it is enough experts and collectors on this forum giving opinions, now you want that all dealers should constantly comment on all other dealers items and condition, maybe always try to offer a better item as soon as they see a chance to badmouth another dealers item, in condition or quality, otherwise it will be SCAAAAARRRRRRYYYYYY in your mind?

I think it is sound that dealers sell items and experts and other collectors comment about the originality. I think though that most dealers do defend items they feel are original if attacked on a forum (Like I did here) and sometimes other dealers do give an opinion as well........but it mainly happens in threads of greater importance.

If you feel you have a LARGE problem with this and it is SCAAAAAARY for you, why don´t you become a military dealer and comment on all items presented on this forum. That is OK for me if it would make you feel better.



You make a hen of a feather!

Peter v L

[Michael N]

Hey Bryan,
Was nice to quickly chat with you for a few moments at the show, took into consideration the points you mentioned and reviewed what we discussed. I see what you are talking about.
Thank you,