How rare are REAL SS Dot Pattern Panzer Wraps?

[robs]

Sure Scott, under the collar. The first shot was taken indaylight and remainder under artificial light.

[robs]

under the collar.

[Scott A. Hess]

The underside fabric on the collar is hbt, interesting, and the left side looks fine subtle roller slips/misses, I'm trying to process the right side and what is there. The geometry of the back panel of the jacket looks fine, it's a bit difficult to match up and it's best when compared with some full length shots of dot pants ESP panzer dot to get a good clear pic of the repeat and layout. I'm going through my two wraps and just noticing differences and similarities. One difference is the hbt wraps I like use foot attachments and not Reece button holes. Yet, good panzer dot pants will show a mix of both, and the period pic of the smooth cotton wrap def shows keyhole Reece use, so safe to say both styles were used. Four pocket dots show use of both in frontal closure.
Could you post collar reverse showing how the neck closure hardware stitching on reverse?...ps I see the details in the pics you posted

[robs]

Yes here are the under collar front closures

[Scott A. Hess]

Rob, am I correct that when you look at the reverse of the collar, it is ONE piece of material, and not two pieces married together in the center? Also, sometimes the view of the pics throw me, you have it there, Im seeing the ENTIRE underside of the collar is HBT, and the material on the wearers UPSIDE of the collar is NOT hbt, can you confirm this? Im also going to post FOUR pics, you will see that they are views of the arm seam from the outside and inside, and that it is from two different hbt wrappers, can you duplicate what I show you on your jacket please? thanks.

[Scott A. Hess]

Sleeve of Jacket 1

[Scott A. Hess]

Jacket 2a...this jacket and matching dot pz pants, both came from Jerome B. He had two identical sets, both mint unissued, and both virtually identical in cloth and construction. Brian Epstein bought the second set Jerome had, and it has since sold to another collector. Both Jackets owned by Jerome are also identical in manufacture details to the first jacket I posted, as well as interesting tailor marks. I can find no fault with any of the three jackets (and pants) mentioned, and would consider them "textbook" to the extent such a thing exists, that being, they are not out of the norm, and accepted as originals. The jacket below appears a bit washed out from the artificial light, and is in person of the same hue/tones as the one posted above.

[B. N. Singer]

Atypical material; but from the pictures, Original IMO.

B. N. Singer

[Fritz]

As for buttonholes: You will find various designs, the keyhole type, the type described by Scott and another one that I don't know what it is called. The latter is basicly a "slit design". The variety probably depended on what the maker had available.

For that reason you will also find these various types with coveralls, smocks, zelts and so on.

Some items can have uniform buttonholes or a mix of two different types (and/or size).

In rarer occasions some, apparently, very late items even had hand sewn button holes.

As for sewing: Scott already asked for pics, probably in order to determine if either a double needle or single needle machine was used. As with most "late war" ss camo items double needle was the greater part but never managed to fully replace single needle production.

That again goes for smocks, covers, zelts and other things as well. The earlier an item the more likely a single needle machine was used, the later the more likely a double needle machine was used.


These are my observations.



Sorry that I am not going to share here what exactly I like about that item.



Cheers

[Luca Ongaro]

Rob, as told you the fabric as print buttonholes etc. are original, will be not in my opinion a difficult piece to move in the future.
You should be proud to have such a nice late war wrap in your collection and I say this just from the pictures showed.
Congratulation

[robs]

Thank Scott, yes the rear collar is one piece. Here are sleeve photos.

Thanks again for everyone's feedback.

[robs]

sleeve exterior seam, and rear collar interior.

[SJP]

Thanks for posting the additional photo's Rob.
__________________________________
Cheers Steve

[Scott A. Hess]

Hello Rob....thanks for the additional photos, they were imo very helpful. Based on what I see in the pics, I PERSONALLY feel more comfortable with saying the piece is original. Do realize that I could be mistaken, and ultimately, holding it in hand is the only way I would ever be able to say with some greater certainty that it is of pre May 45 manufacture. The overall construction of the jacket, the sewing, the things I see are correct for the garment, there are diffferences between yours, the ones I've owned, and ones I have seen, but these differences ie, single vs double needle, keyhhole button vs. footattachment/slit buttonhole etc, are found on other SS dot garments, M44 Jackets, matching kielhosen and panzer dot pants, and period pics of smooth cotton show keyhole buttonholes in use, so I cant dismiss it for either of those two reasons.

The big variable for me is that some of the jacket, the sleeves, the underside of the collar, the tunnel loops are hbt material and authentic material, and the other parts of the tunic look to be of a shoddy linen however with some of the same thread width variances which makes this discernable vairation to the fabric that is even in good hbt material. I just have not encountered to date SS dot...four pockets, wrappers, pants, made out of this as Byron put it "atypical" material. Maybe others have held this in hand, and are entirely comfortalbe with it, a benefit I have not had. The concern for me is the material. So, that being said, I'm sorry to not have waited for more and detailed pictures, to me they are helpful...

If I am wrong, I have NO problem whatsoever admitting that, I was not their when these pieces were being made, nor were any other forum members as I've said before. My goal is to learn as much as I can and if I can to help others if they so desire, with what knowledtge I have, and as always, anyone is free to accept it or dismiss it, as they feel fit.

Perhaps someone can take a close look at the Reece keyhole buttons, ie, do they appear of the proper length...fakes are often too short....and even for hbt material the germans turned out a pretty "crisp" looking keyhole button on linen and hbt material...perhaps someone with a better eye can look at the buttonholes and say ..."proper or not". The markings, placement and font, is not the same as the three I have seen, however, I have seen dozens of SS HBT four pockets and pants, and there are certainly some strange placements of markings..many will fall within a norm, some are outside of it, so I cant dismiss the jacket due to this.

I hope that helps some, and welcome any other comments, additions, thoughts, criticism etc to my points. Please also factor into this that there are really well done copies being made, which continue to improve, case in point, SS helmet covers, many of which have fooled many collectors for quite some time. If someone has been making these on the side..well...thats another story, they have an eye for detail. Still, I am more comfortable with the piece than before.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I wish to all the wrapper is OK, they are really sexy indeed... but the following...

"No other dealer in the world who is serious would ever answer someone like that when something is sold by another dealer, if he does not have some special agenda. It probably gives all serious dealers a bad taste in the mouth and makes your comments very little weight."

... is really worrying?

We saw the rant in the forward of Hüskens new books about "internet experts daring to question the knowledge of established dealers!"...

If we take the above... a "dealer omerta"... then we can assume the only one a collector can rely on is another collector, because dealer honor says you cannot badmouth the piece of another dealer? Scaaaary!