How rare are REAL SS Dot Pattern Panzer Wraps?

[Peter v L]

Hey Bryan,
Was nice to quickly chat with you for a few moments at the show, took into consideration the points you mentioned and reviewed what we discussed. I see what you are talking about.
Thank you,

His name is Bryon!

Can you get anything right?

Peter v L

[Scott A. Hess]

His name is Bryon!

Can you get anything right?

Peter v L

IS that really necessary? Why don't you stick to the topic instead of acting like your 15. Michael is a good guy and I would sooner trust his pieces than yours.
Everyone makes mistakes, you have made enough for me to question your ethics and knowledge. Period.

[Peter v L]

IS that really necessary? Why don't you stick to the topic instead of acting like your 15. Michael is a good guy and I would sooner trust his pieces than yours.
Everyone makes mistakes, you have made enough for me to question your ethics and knowledge. Period.

__________________________________


Yes a very good guy, he just tried to shoot down two of our original items! Since we do so many mistakes according to you it would be better he aimed on shooting down those items.

Here you have another of those good guys who was shooting down the wrapper in this thread, he seems to be a very good guy as well! http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=655963 probably you trust his pieces over our as well?

We are four people working 12 - 14 hours seven days a week with this company, this is our living, and we put down a lot of time finding items and also try to sell original ones, we will answer up when we think is appropriate! If that is questioning our ethics and knowledge according to you, it have to stand for you. I know a lot who think differently though! As it comes to mistakes, as you say, we naturally do our fair share as all dealers and collectors, none are perfect and we will in contrary to most collectors stand up for our items and deal with any mistake done, we have never left anyone hanging with an item not happy with or which have been deemed as a reproduction. We have been taking back 10.000 Euros items 12 years after we sold them even if given all heads up at the time of sale on this forum and even if there are no legal right for that.


If we as a dealer answer up to them attacking us and strike back when needed then you question our ethics and knowledge and call us 15 years old..... you know what........I can live with that! PERIOD.

This is your hobby, but our job!

Peter v L

[B. N. Singer]

Hey Bryan,
Was nice to quickly chat with you for a few moments at the show, took into consideration the points you mentioned and reviewed what we discussed. I see what you are talking about.
Thank you,

Yes Sir, it was nice to chat briefly with you as well.

Regardless of the spelling (or pronunciation) of my name, I think Michael deserves credit for being open enough to “revisit” this jacket and willing to entertain modifying his thoughts on the piece.

Regards,
Bryon

[Peter v L]

Yes Sir, it was nice to chat briefly with you as well.

Regardless of the spelling (or pronunciation) of my name, I think Michael deserves credit for being open enough to “revisit” this jacket and willing to entertain modifying his thoughts on the piece.

Regards,
Bryon

If that was the case, naturally!

I did however not read the post that way!

Maybe I am paranoid. If so my applogizes

Peter

[robs]

Naturally I'm pleased with the verdict. Thanks to ALL contributors. I appreciate the vigorous vetting of this item.

After some years on WAF, one develops a jist of 'who's who' and from that, whose opinion you accept more and those you tend to reject. I don't think Michael N or Jarek should be discouraged from expressing their opinions. It's what I asked for and they remain very reliable.

And thanks to Peter VL who responded to my distress email promptly and offered to put things right if need be, which corroborates the general concensus of him here.

[Scott A. Hess]

One of the obvious issues with posting such a piece here, and sometimes any piece, is here pictures sometimes really are not worth a thousand words. First of all...they can be blurry..low resolution, and dont allow one to get a good feel for the cloth, construction, hardware, stitching..etc etc. This piece from the first pictures is not a "one looker"...they do exist. I think the additional photos Rob posted were extremely helpful, and the first pictures were simply not enough..FOR me...others may disagree. IMO they simply did not show enough, quality was poor, too much detail lacking. There is also no substitute for holding an item in hand, especially one like this in which the fabric is not as typically found.

[Scott A. Hess]

Peter v L[/QUOTE]

If we as a dealer answer up to them attacking us and strike back when needed then you question our ethics and knowledge and call us 15 years old..... you know what........I can live with that! PERIOD.

Nice rationalization and or explaination ..but my questioning your ethics and knowledge has nothing at all to do with this particular wrapper. Would you like me to enumerate? I'll be more than happy...some of the items which came from you are now pinned in the "repro SS insignia" as accepted fakes. I could go on...but...I won't. I think you have a pretty good idea of what I am referring to.

[90th Light]

Peter v L

If we as a dealer answer up to them attacking us and strike back when needed then you question our ethics and knowledge and call us 15 years old..... you know what........I can live with that! PERIOD.

Nice rationalization and or explaination ..but my questioning your ethics and knowledge has nothing at all to do with this particular wrapper. Would you like me to enumerate? I'll be more than happy...some of the items which came from you are now pinned in the "repro SS insignia" as accepted fakes. I could go on...but...I won't. I think you have a pretty good idea of what I am referring to.[/QUOTE]





Hello Scott,

well I am lost but what you say however, is interesting. Perhaps you could narrow it down for us ??? Is Gary Wood in agreement with what you are stating ?

Chris



fake uniform insignia thread;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=83489

fake cap insignia;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240462

fake uniforms ;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=271656

Fake pattern camouflage thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=271989

Fake camouflage cap thread;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=276232

__________________

[Scott A. Hess]

If we as a dealer answer up to them attacking us and strike back when needed then you question our ethics and knowledge and call us 15 years old..... you know what........I can live with that! PERIOD.

Nice rationalization and or explaination ..but my questioning your ethics and knowledge has nothing at all to do with this particular wrapper. Would you like me to enumerate? I'll be more than happy...some of the items which came from you are now pinned in the "repro SS insignia" as accepted fakes. I could go on...but...I won't. I think you have a pretty good idea of what I am referring to.

Hello Scott,

well I am lost but what you say however, is interesting. Perhaps you could narrow it down for us ??? Is Gary Wood in agreement with what you are stating ?

Chris



fake uniform insignia thread;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=83489

fake cap insignia;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240462

fake uniforms ;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=271656

Fake pattern camouflage thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=271989

Fake camouflage cap thread;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=276232

__________________[/QUOTE]


Yes Gary Wood is in agreement...dont worry...more like the repro ones I bought are there. I should have done my homework, but I trusted the source. I now buy the piece, AFTER I do my homework, and incidentially do still trust many dealers. Trust but Verify. My initial posts dealt solely with the originality of the tunic, NOT in any way shape or form, did I ever mention the source, nor say "it must be bad because its from PvL. However, Peter writes that I attack his knowledge and ethics after lumping me in a crowd that necessitated him "striking back" and absent my own opinion, defaulting to challenging the source, knowledge and the dealers ethics. I did not do this, and dont appreciate the insinuation that I had. I questioned later the sources ethics and knowledge because I believe they are questionable. My review of the piece was fair, reasonable, and based on what I saw from those pictures shown. I was on the fence earlier, never attacking the source. When more detailed pics showed up, it helped me to reach the decision that the jacket is atypical, but more than likely an original one. If I wanted to bash PvL, why would I change my mind and believe it to be an atypical original? Much easier if that was my goal to just say "bad piece", and be done with it. I stand firm that this piece would not be one for me, but then, I don't own it, I dont go out on a limb with such expensive pieces that I question. That's just smart collecting. I'm not going to sink mid to high 5 figures into something which is not a one looker.

[90th Light]

Hello Scott,

Yes Gary Wood is in agreement...dont worry...more like the repro ones I bought are there. I should have done my homework, but I trusted the source. I now buy the piece, AFTER I do my homework, and incidentially do still trust many dealers. Trust but Verify. My initial posts dealt solely with the originality of the tunic, NOT in any way shape or form, did I ever mention the source, nor say "it must be bad because its from PvL. However, Peter writes that I attack his knowledge and ethics after lumping me in a crowd that necessitated him "striking back" and absent my own opinion, defaulting to challenging the source, knowledge and the dealers ethics. I did not do this, and dont appreciate the insinuation that I had. My review of the piece was fair, reasonable, and based on what I saw from those pictures shown. I was on the fence earlier, never attacking the source. When more detailed pics showed up, it helped me to reach the decision that the jacket is atypical, but more than likely an original one. I stand firm that this piece would not be one for me, but then, I don't own it, I dont go out on a limb with such expensive pieces that I question. That's just smart collecting. I'm not going to sink mid to high 5 figures into something which is not a one looker.

Thanks Scott,

I now understand what you are saying. If my memory serves me correctly, the items in question was a pair of SS signal shoulder boards with HBT lined tongue ?

When it comes to prejudice against HBT then have a look at this thread;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=SS+panzer+M43

The question always is, have we here at WAF made the right call ??? To show what I mean, have a look also at these three.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=260576

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=HG+M43

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=43+Panzer+Cap

The real question is, " are we getting it right when we call these items out " or is it misplaced collector folklore ???

Chris

p.s. I think you have made the effort to make a fair call on the SS wrap which started this thread. You have balanced up the "pros" against the "cons" and discussed what you do or do not like in some detail. This is all I have ever asked for on WAF, a "fair" hearing of an item before we pass judgement.

[Scott A. Hess]

Those and other like them are 100% repros. Why? The back of the board (field grey material) on first glance look good. Notice the zig zag running down the length of the board? This was used to "marry" scrap pieces of material, sometimes of the same material, often different, in original boards, as well as tunic reverse collars,backs of pocket bellows etc. The zig zag stitching on this run of fake boards, available in any color, marrys nothing, zip. It's simply put there to mimic the effect, purely show. That's why these boards are fake, and the other ones of the similar design. The fakers have since learned from their mistakes and take the time now to properly marry the materials.

[90th Light]

Those and other like them are 100% repros. Why? The back of the board (field grey material) on first glance look good. Notice the zig zag running down the length of the board? This was used to "marry" scrap pieces of material, sometimes of the same material, often different, in original boards, as well as tunic reverse collars,backs of pocket bellows etc. The zig zag stitching on this run of fake boards, available in any color, marrys nothing, zip. It's simply put there to mimic the effect, purely show. That's why these boards are fake, and the other ones of the similar design. The fakers have since learned from their mistakes and take the time now to properly marry the materials.

I was not defending the boards Scott,

without seeing them again it was hard to say much more. The point that you make about the fieldgrey backings is a reasonable one.

The links I posted are "shades of grey" which we find out more and more about as time passes.

On some items we have been too quick to condemn. Sure, 100% text-book is peace of mind and easier to resell. That however, does not mean that variations from the norm are not in fact a 100% period variations and in no way any less history of the time than a textbook item. The camo wrap which started this thread proves this.

Chris

[robs]

Here's a couple of examples of nice camo dot wrappers, owned by Bob Hritz and Mike Davis...Mike's pics have disappeared but hope they are restored soon.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...wrapper&page=2

[WWIIBuff]

Here's a couple of examples of nice camo dot wrappers, owned by Bob Hritz and Mike Davis...Mike's pics have disappeared but hope they are restored soon.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...wrapper&page=2

Thanks for trying to get my thread back on the original subject Robs. Your link is to a thread I started several years ago about a different set I had acquired, unfortunately not a good one.

Hopefully we can somehow get everyone back to focusing on the purpose of this thread and have people post pictures of their original unquestionable SS dot panzer wrap examples.

The comment was made early in this thread that these wraps are not that rare, so if that is really the case, can we please see some of the known examples out there?