Helmet covers ..........good and bad

[Fritz]

with the web repair tape.

I hope this is one of your subtle jokes...?

[RobertE]

This thread hasn't told us much and certainly hasn't done what the thread title promised. Here's what I've got:

- Strangeglove can't tell us in English what is good or bad, but can show interested members if they want to follow him around at a militaria show

- No one else can articulate the fine points of what distingishes fake from real either, although old timers have got a good set of definative criteria which can't be shared.

- Phone calls and PMs behind the scenes reinforced that one group or another was "right"; no details shared or discussed for the readers of the thread.

- General helmet cover characteristics were covered, as well as pet theories. Nothing provided criteria for "good or bad" - the "truth" was not revealed.

- Detailed discussion focused on single-double thread practices, and acceptable sewing techniques.

- Roy presented two helmet clips, one original and one replica, which was acknowledged by thread readers as the most meaningful input to the whole discussion.

- An experienced SS camo collector, Ted, was agreed by those who know him to be an expert on these articles. A number of collectors pointed out they know him, with the implication (IMO) being that Ted endorses their position on these covers. Whether Ted has actually seen Francesco's cover is not known.

In summary, this discussion has settled into the same back and forth as is taking place in the two other threads. No one has presented anything here that changes the basic discussion, much less addresses the thread title. As passionate as this discussion has become, I'm confident that if either side really had compelling evidence of real or fake, they'd throw it out here. My read: there are no secrets, just more (strongly held) opinions. Nothing is being protected, there is just nothing to reveal.

s/f Robert

[RoyA]

Is this the Palm cover that was referred to earlier?

[CWP]

Thread title should be changed to "Baffling bull**** and boobs."

[Asper]

I think that summarizes what I've gathered so far. With the addition that:

- All of the covers bearing similar construction and material variables have been sourced from Italy.

- The same forger also produced multiple camo caps.

My own input, and I have expanded a bit more on other forums:

- With SS covers we do not have standards that can be related to particular manufacturers. So unlike other cloth items with stamps and other signature identifiers - such are just not there in covers. I've tried to group them by stitch style, thread, loops, fabrics, camos, rockers, pins, springs - you name it - still not able to come to any conclusions. Although following basic construction principles, the variations mentioned above are enormous across patterns in many solid provenance based examples.

So what I'm saying here is that as much as we like to classify militaria into manufacturers and style that match the makers - covers are still missing that connection until someone is able to provide evidence of such corrolations.

Further observations that to me go beyond stitching technique:

- The rocker clip to cloth wear often does not match. Clips often reflect heavy use, while the covers don't. Seam lack of discoloration contrast is clear evidence that zelts were used.

- Most of the rocker clips display ground dug features

- Thread weathering does not match cover and clips

- Pin backing often shows evidence of rework (distorted with damage)

- Salty covers should show evidence of salty wear

To me the most important point of this discussion is that some folks may now know the source of these covers and could potentially put an end to this expensive fraud. So who is the source? Dr, any hints?

Cheers,

Asper

[TonyS]

Thread title should be changed to "Baffling bull**** and boobs."

That pretty well sums it up.

[Ron P]

This thread hasn't told us much and certainly hasn't done what the thread title promised. Here's what I've got:

- Strangeglove can't tell us in English what is good or bad, but can show interested members if they want to follow him around at a militaria show

- No one else can articulate the fine points of what distingishes fake from real either, although old timers have got a good set of definative criteria which can't be shared.

- Phone calls and PMs behind the scenes reinforced that one group or another was "right"; no details shared or discussed for the readers of the thread.

- General helmet cover characteristics were covered, as well as pet theories. Nothing provided criteria for "good or bad" - the "truth" was not revealed.

- Detailed discussion focused on single-double thread practices, and acceptable sewing techniques.

- Roy presented two helmet clips, one original and one replica, which was acknowledged by thread readers as the most meaningful input to the whole discussion.

- An experienced SS camo collector, Ted, was agreed by those who know him to be an expert on these articles. A number of collectors pointed out they know him, with the implication (IMO) being that Ted endorses their position on these covers. Whether Ted has actually seen Francesco's cover is not known.

In summary, this discussion has settled into the same back and forth as is taking place in the two other threads. No one has presented anything here that changes the basic discussion, much less addresses the thread title. As passionate as this discussion has become, I'm confident that if either side really had compelling evidence of real or fake, they'd throw it out here. My read: there are no secrets, just more (strongly held) opinions. Nothing is being protected, there is just nothing to reveal.

s/f Robert

You have distilled this thread down to it's true conclusion.

[Massimo F.]

Thread title should be changed to "Baffling bull**** and boobs."

[kammo man]

Dont read this thread then.

THat IS A FAKE PALM HELMET COVER ......

OWEN

[kammo man]

Ted has seen the lorenzo helmet covers and based on his 5o year experience of collecting SS camouflage deemed the covers FAKE .

[jacquesf]

Owen, I get your well and now not so well camoed clue. Jacques

[A c h t u n g !]

Ted has seen the lorenzo helmet covers and based on his 5o year experience of collecting SS camouflage deemed the covers FAKE .

Which helmet covers exactly you are talking about?
Most of camo items that you ever see on major dealer websites (B.Shea, P.Whammond, M.Stiles, etc.) and/or in the best collections have came from Lorenzo one way or another.

Lorenzo has perhaps the largest Waffen-SS uniforms collection in the world with hundreds of camo items, mostly smocks and helmet covers. Many of his items pictured in reference books, including Beaver's.

I am the only person who has ever had a privilage to see all his collection in his home. It is a tremendous and very advanced collection, truly "camo heaven" with many very rare, absolutely unique, "high-end" camo items. I handled and have pictures of all his items, examined and studdied every one of them. There are no questionable items, and by the way no helmet covers similar to Francesco's or Dr.Strangelove's covers either. I looked at pictures of all his covers just today.

Naturally, his premium collection can make some people jealous and as a result the rumours.. I've heard these rumors too (most likely from the same individual) and I DO NOT BELIEVE IT because I know Lorenzo for many years and always only as a good, honest collector and trustworthy man.

[kammo man]

no doubt about Lorenzos mass of SS cammo.


How many Zelts does he own?

and how many covers were made .

???????????????????????????????????


20 ..............30 ?

[A c h t u n g !]

no doubt about Lorenzos mass of SS cammo.


How many Zelts does he own?

and how many covers were made .

???????????????????????????????????


20 ..............30 ?

I remember very well how just a few months ago you were accusing Francesco in faking helmet covers too.. Sorry your accusations cannot be taken seriously no more.

[David B.]

SS Camo

Greetings Owen,
It seems as if a few collectors have never met Jerome! Sincerely, DJB