ss TK skull SILVER 900

[norge]

---

[SgtB]

Mein Gott norge! That tk screams "FAKE" so loudly that I can still hear it after I shut down my computer! I cannot believe anybody could be taken in by it. Somewhere there is a faker laughing very hard right now.

It is clearly a cast fake with bogus pins, spurious 900 marke, and very cheesy hand-finished suturing.

Some of you folks speak about jewelers like they were at a premium during the TR period. I do hope you realize that Deschler, Zimmerman, Assman, S&L, Hicke, Juncker, etc., etc., etc., etc., were all top-notch jewelers, and that is precisely why they were employed by the nazi gang.

So where are all of the crappy cast silver junk badges with fakey pins and poorly finished sutures made by these guys? The short answer is: There aren't any. Period.

This piece of crap was made by some drunk bastard in his backroom workshop. Melt it down and sell it. Silver is high now.

I'd like to add a third reason why I'm beginning to like this one :

the placement of the silvermarking itself - on the outside edge , where it can be seen , but only when looking for it under an angle ( by the cap owner who paid extra for it ) .
Unlike e.g. a brooch or award , the reverse of this item would never be seen again once in place . Not much use to mark the reverse then , like the fake 223/39 fake set shown later in the thread .

I'll be glad to admit that all 3 reasons stated are subtle indications only , NOT definite proof , since all these characteristics could be achieved by a jeweller today ( including the use of genuine silver , if so ) .

But it would have been done by someone who has given it a lot more thought than the average faker . And has also taken the time to handfinish it by enhancing the sutures .

IMHO : IF period silver capbadges existed , I'd like to think they would look exactly like this - a handcrafted custom made piece with the RZM marking left out , not a die struck Deschler-made version from sheet silver ..


But IMO also different from known repro's ;

I strongly believe that these sutures have been enhanced BY HAND , using a very fine CHISEL . I have seen this only once before , on an original SP40 .

A refinement like that would take time and a skilled hand , I could imagine a jeweller doing this on a silver casting .

I also believe a period jeweller would indeed leave out the MARKINGS on the reverse , since this is not an item from the Deschler factories , but a custom made piece . Why would a faker leave them out .. ?

Two reasons why I think now this one may have potential of being period after all - I'd be very interested in a test result on silver content .. !

Jeez, you couldn't be more wrong. My only advice is to do yourself a big favor and stay away from headgear insignia.

[RobertE]

I don't see the need for all the condescending noise, Brian. Norge has asked a legitimate question, and has gone to the point of removing the insignia from his cap to help with the discussion, something few collectors would do.

No one here knows for certain that 800 or 900 marked SS cap insignia existed during WW2 - everyone is speculating. If you want to see worse insignia, it's out there, and if this is the worst you've seen count yourself lucky.

Let's keep an open mind. Or publish the order showing such insignia was forbidden, and all possible manufacturers written agreement to abide by that order. Norge is trying to figure this out, so let's not forget that everyone here is simply stating their opinion (which is great), not facts.

regards, Robert

[john mack]

ss

I would not melt that skull down if i were you . I have one as well and although I cannot say for certain it is period pre 1945 I would not chance getting rid of it or loosing interest because it MIGHT be fake . Ive seen a few things deemed as fake crap and turn out years later to be good . Wishfull thinking ? Yes of course it is but no one has been able to say when or where these were made like most of the fake ss skulls out there . The answer of authenticity is not difinitive either way .

[SgtB]

Thanks Robert. But I don't see the need for your opinion of my response. Please try to stay on topic. You're right, norge asked a legitimate question and I gave him a legitimate answer. I wasn't being at all condescending, just factual. There is nothing to figure out. The skull is a fake.

I only gave a glance at the cap itself, so don't hold me to this, but it looked like a very high quality original. But the skull is a p.o.s. End of story.

Collectors should never feel the need to remove a cap badge. That only happens with fakes. If you remove a cap badge that you believe is original, please, please, please find another hobby immediately because you are a rank amateur and you are doing more harm than good.

I believe there is a high probability that original silver cap badges existed, but this is not one.

[RobertE]

Brian, your sarcasm is again apparent.

"There is nothing to figure out. The skull is a fake.

I only gave a glance at the cap itself, so don't hold me to this, but it looked like a very high quality original. But the skull is a p.o.s. End of story."

All opinion.

"If you remove a cap badge that you believe is original, please, please, please find another hobby immediately because you are a rank amateur and you are doing more harm than good."

Try to make your point without being offensive, instead of mock pleading to leave an article alone. For instance, you could say: "I think removing insignia is a bad idea, because it can damage the piece" instead of branding every person who has removed insignia from a cap as a "rank amateur" and directing them away from the hobby.

regards, Robert

[wolfslair]

I don't see the need for all the condescending noise, Brian. Norge has asked a legitimate question, and has gone to the point of removing the insignia from his cap to help with the discussion, something few collectors would do.

No one here knows for certain that 800 or 900 marked SS cap insignia existed during WW2 - everyone is speculating. If you want to see worse insignia, it's out there, and if this is the worst you've seen count yourself lucky.

Let's keep an open mind. Or publish the order showing such insignia was forbidden, and all possible manufacturers written agreement to abide by that order. Norge is trying to figure this out, so let's not forget that everyone here is simply stating their opinion (which is great), not facts.

regards, Robert

Well said and I totally agree.
Steve

[cris403]

Well said and I totally agree.
Steve

Same here

[norge]

wow.. thats clear talk from you Brian! Great to have an expert along!
Well i only wanted to share this skull since i have never seen a same skull posted on any forums, nor seen in hand. Some of you have obviously seen all and that is great, but that does not help us who dont have, and probably ever will.
When seeing the backside, it is offcause not made by any of the known nazi jewelers that you mentioned Brian. But this hat have Scandinavian history, so i only keept my mind open to shear and learn more of what could have been put on a ss visor in the war period.
I have never stated it as an Original Brian, and if you call me an amateur again, be kind to go to hell!
...just kidding. Have collected for 27 years so i can take it, and dont care..

I do have handeled "a couple" of those ss visors during the past.. and i dont stop seeking more lessons and stay openminded with an interesting discussion when not textbook items appears. This forum should be great for such, but i feel very litle pictures of those good fakes or "belived to be" original silverskull has been posted here to compare. I only long to see an original..but seem that that would not happen at waf..
Happy Easter all, you also Brian
Regards
Gisle

[rzzzm]

wow.. thats clear talk from you Brian! Great to have an expert along!
Well i only wanted to share this skull since i have never seen a same skull posted on any forums, nor seen in hand. Some of you have obviously seen all and that is great, but that does not help us who dont have, and probably ever will.
When seeing the backside, it is offcause not made by any of the known nazi jewelers that you mentioned Brian. But this hat have Scandinavian history, so i only keept my mind open to shear and learn more of what could have been put on a ss visor in the war period.
I have never stated it as an Original Brian, and if you call me an amateur again, be kind to go to hell!
...just kidding. Have collected for 27 years so i can take it, and dont care..

I do have handeled "a couple" of those ss visors during the past.. and i dont stop seeking more lessons and stay openminded with an interesting discussion when not textbook items appears. This forum should be great for such, but i feel very litle pictures of those good fakes or "belived to be" original silverskull has been posted here to compare. I only long to see an original..but seem that that would not happen at waf..
Happy Easter all, you also Brian
Regards
Gisle

As i told you my friend..when you have figure it out .. silver or not..and it was silver..then put it back on that lovely visor and live happy With it i like that skull

[SgtB]

I appreciate your interest, Robert!

wow.. thats clear talk from you Brian! Great to have an expert along!

No problem, norge! Happy to be of service!

I have never stated it as an Original Brian, and if you call me an amateur again, be kind to go to hell!

Ahh! But you misunderstand me! Please read my post again. I said if you remove a cap badge that you believe is original, then you are a rank amateur. If you believe (correctly) that this badge is a fake, then by all means, remove it. It has no business being on your fine visor.

I am sure that all serious headgear collectors agree with me that original badges should never be removed from the original cap that they have been on since the war. That is completely irresponsible behavior and is the mark of someone that has no place in this hobby.

Happy Easter all, you also Brian
Regards
Gisle

Be careful Gisle! In this increasingly liberal PC world, that may be the biggest insult of all! But a Happy Easter to you too!

[Sal Williams]

well some of the heavy hitters like this TK so I would say at this point it seems to all be OPINION and nothing more.

[turbopanzer]

hi

Hi Gisle
Not an skull i would have on an visor in my collection imo
Happy eastern

turbo

[ferdinandmax]

who knows, if the eagle is silver? This is just like yours, mine is silver, my humble opinion, the skull is the time IMO, regards sergio

[Chris Boonzaier]

A silly question..... but why on earth would anyone WANT real silver attributes that are attached with pins that break?

Imagine you were an SS dude... paid premium to get specially made silver skull and eagle... after 3 months they tarnish... you take them off, polish then, put them back on... already pin one breaks from the eagle.... then 4 months later you repeat... and another couple of pins break...

For me the question is... would the SS dud have found the real silver badges as cool as we collectors do?