Good evening Gentlemen!
First of all, thanks to all who have contributed in this thread. Several knowledgeable members have posted their opinions and/or was well their photos and contributions. I think most of the subject has already been covered. I do believe this is the best thread ever on Hammerhead eagles. I do not think I could add so much but will try to do so any way.
I have been on vacation and I am trying to catch up, and hence my VERY late reply.
Hohenstafen; Your collection is truly amazing! I do believe you are correct in your statements. At least I have came to the same conclusion. I will however come back to the eagle you posted in post No 19.
I also want to thank Jim Toncar for his input regarding this matter. And of course thanks again to all others including Francesco, Jpic, Gary Wood, Greg Domian, Sayle and others. I am sorry if I have forgot any names.
Richard; No harm meant, but I have to say that I was a bit surprised by your statement. If you only believe in collectors that has 25 years of experience, I say you walk a dangerous path. It is essential to know what originals looks like without regard to the length of collecting years of whom will say this or that. Many has been fooled by old timers because they are supposed to be the ones with the knowledge and the "fresh meat" hence are wrong. Many has of course also been helped by the long time collectors which often has great knowledge to share. Cheers to them! But again, that is not fool proof. By these words I mean no insult or harm, but what merely are my observation during my relatively few collecting years. I am actually very glad this thread got started with the resulting information being posted.
I will try to explain a bit further:
Cheers,
Felix
First of all, thanks to all who have contributed in this thread. Several knowledgeable members have posted their opinions and/or was well their photos and contributions. I think most of the subject has already been covered. I do believe this is the best thread ever on Hammerhead eagles. I do not think I could add so much but will try to do so any way.
I have been on vacation and I am trying to catch up, and hence my VERY late reply.
Hohenstafen; Your collection is truly amazing! I do believe you are correct in your statements. At least I have came to the same conclusion. I will however come back to the eagle you posted in post No 19.
I also want to thank Jim Toncar for his input regarding this matter. And of course thanks again to all others including Francesco, Jpic, Gary Wood, Greg Domian, Sayle and others. I am sorry if I have forgot any names.
Richard; No harm meant, but I have to say that I was a bit surprised by your statement. If you only believe in collectors that has 25 years of experience, I say you walk a dangerous path. It is essential to know what originals looks like without regard to the length of collecting years of whom will say this or that. Many has been fooled by old timers because they are supposed to be the ones with the knowledge and the "fresh meat" hence are wrong. Many has of course also been helped by the long time collectors which often has great knowledge to share. Cheers to them! But again, that is not fool proof. By these words I mean no insult or harm, but what merely are my observation during my relatively few collecting years. I am actually very glad this thread got started with the resulting information being posted.
I will try to explain a bit further:
- The name "Hammerhead" is not a war time name at all but only a collectors name for eagles that have the shape of the head that partly resembles the shape of a hammers head. From what I can tell that means that any eagle with what looks like a flat head resembling partly the shape of a hammers head are or should be considered as hammerhead eagles IMHO. That means that the eagles in post No 7 and 18 (as Hohenstaufen rightfully also points out) are not Hammerhead eagles but rather nice early SS VT or SS TV eagles. That "might" go for the eagle in post No 19 as well. I now realise that the definition of a Hammerhead eagle depends on personal preferences which is a bit odd if you put it into the full context.
- RZM eagles: The eagles posted in this thread are all RZM eagles without regard to the time frame in which they were used, as long as they are made under the RZM controle. RZM controlled the production of the SS insignias until late 1942 or the turn of 1942/1943. That makes virtually all SS insignias produced until this date as RZM pattern versions. A few of these early style eagles are encountered with RZM labels as well which clearly illustrates this.
- To use the term SS VT eagle is a different subject than declaring an eagle as a Hammerhead eagle. What is considered an early SS VT eagle or a later SS VT eagle also might differ. However the term SS VT eagle and Hammerhead are not the same. Insignias considered to be SS VT means all insignias used during the days when SS VT existed. The SS Verfugungstruppe transformation into Waffen SS took place some time during the spring of 1940. Up to this date eagles and other insignias used by this organisation therefore are and should be considered as SS VT. As we know the insignia orders were not always followed by the day, month or even year. There are several insignias used in later stages of the war that were against regulations and hence later use of SS VT insignias were not super rare. One example is that post 1939 the script of cuff titles by regulation changed from gothic to Latin. Quite a few Gothic cuff titles can be seen in early, mid or even in late war photos. RD Rygaard posted some time ago a very interesting photo. It is found here: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ght=hammerhead
I have made a comparison shot with my eagle (see next post) and I would say they match or are at least VERY similar. IMHO they are probably the same, taking some distortion and angles/use/light in the photos in to consideration. Compare the shape of the head and a few other details. The eagle in the old photo is not any of the other style of hammerhead eagles, for sure. The eagles in Hohenstaufens post No 16 are of the same style. The photo posted by RD Rygaard I would date to around mid 1940, based on the insignia configurations, showing this particular eagle in question already in use. That would theoretically make it a late SS VT eagle, not an early SS VT eagle, but nevertheless a SS VT eagle. I can not tell for sure but I would NOT say it is incorrect to call it an SS VT eagle. I have seen claims that they were used even earlier.
- Eagle in post 19: This kind of eagle is a bit hard for me personally to put a date on. It is for sure a very beautiful and well made style of eagle with great detail and that I really like. I have owned a few of them. They can be found in white or grey cotton and also in what resembles subdued thread (see photo below). From what I know subdued insignias (tresse etc) were manufactured somewhere from around mid war and onwards. Perhaps it started even earlier. I can not verify this for sure. However I have never seen subdued insignias that can be traced back to pre war or very early war time era that should fit the time frame for SS VT. The very nice cut off Hohenstaufen posts the grey eagle comes together with a subdued chevron. I have owned a few of this style of eagles that originated from a vet find along with BeVo skulls. From what I found out this find was an end of war find. However that does not tell us much about the time this kind of eagle first was used. IMHO I would say they are early to mid war without any real proof. Just my observations.
- Price: The most desired eagle is the style in post No 5, 24 and 28. That reflects how bad collectors wants this particular eagle in their collection. I have seen this style of eagle sell for very high prices. Eagles like the one I posted goes for less. I can not explain the difference in price other than the mere desire of collectors to have them. I have seen prices for the most wanted styles at + 2K to around 1K for the style I posted. The eagles posted by Sayle are also quite pricey.
Cheers,
Felix
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