Question for Herr Lumsden!

[Robin Lumsden]

Basil.
Can you PLEASE post a photo of the SA rune collar patch in wear??


Perry.
Can you personally speak to a vet who brought stuff back from Dachau?


I've still to be convinced.


PLEASE convince me!!


Too much of this is just 'hearsay'. That's the simple point I'm trying to make.

Regards,


Robin.

[Basil]

[QUOTE=Robin Lumsden]Basil.
Can you PLEASE post a photo of the SA rune collar patch in wear??

Robin,

No, I can't because I'm not a member! However, let me point you towards the picture in the addendum to the 2nd edition of Jack Angolia's 'Cloth Insignia of the SS' book - or are you suggesting that that's a fake? And, if Himmler wasn't inclined towards SA iconography for his 18th Division, why did he call it 'Horst Wessel' - or is that a myth as well?

Simply taking a contrarian viewpoint doesn't actually advance your arguments at all. But what you are doing is undermining the integrity of people like Bob Hritz and David Delich who have been seeking out and buying material from 45th Division veterans for years. Certainly the SS collar insignia with white thread marks on the back have been copied - notably by Delta International in the 1960s and 70s, but also by others since then - but there are significant qualitative differences between these and the 'originals'.

There is plenty of first person, eye-witness testimony that bundles of insignia were found at the clothing depot at Dachau: I haven't personally interviewed any of the vets who found it, but several people that I trust have done so. Clearly you don't like that idea but you don't appear to be in a position to refute it with anything approaching evidence - and presumably it wouldn't be that difficult to find a veteran who was there and didn't see anything - unlike the W-SS the 45th Division have a very open veterans association.

Cheers,

Baz

[SgtB]

Hey - I like this! I didn't expect to get such a great debate started!
Let's just keep it civil!

Thanks Robin. I've been wondering about that for about fifteen years
now! As soon as I saw that cap in the 2nd book, I knew it was the
same one, but couldn't figure out why the nametag change with no
explanation. A real head-scratcher. I wasn't casting any judgements.
Hell, I've done more bizarre sh1t than that myself!

I often thought about putting out a book, but it's such a daunting
task, that it never left the planning stage. I truly respect
those that have done it. Yes, there are mistakes and outdated
information in every book on my shelf, but these are generally
recognizable, and rarely, if ever, tarnish the whole work. How
else are we, as collectors, going to learn if nobody is willing to
make a statement simply because it may be proved (or just believed
to be) wrong someday?

Having said that, I think you're mistaken about the Dachau tabs!
Fakes abound, yes. But originals of many of these variations do exist IMO.

Now how about a look at the inside of that crusher?

[Gary Wood]

Robin,
It is documented by collectors who have bought from US vets and accepted by "collectors" that US troops took many ss items from the ss depot at dachau and as such is all mint as it was un issued, there is no evedence I know off that this is untrue, there is however some misconception by some that most of these items of insignia were made at dachau rather than the specialist manufacture's although anything is possible

I have seen many of the same patches in my time in used condition, so in my mine there is no doubt that this occurred, also fellow collector Bob Hritz publish photo's of one such buy from a US vet on another forum some time ago.

Incidentally "the line" which so many associate with the dachau tabs also appears on other collar tabs that are not associated with the depot, there is a reason for this line, there would also before cutting from the sheet of cloth be 2 lines, one is a positioning line used when the patch is assembled the other is a cutting line, sometime you can find patches with both lines, most commonly found on the Handschar tab, I will see if I still have Bob's picture on the computer and post them here I am sure he will not mind but he does I will remove them
cheers,
Gary

[Gary Wood]

Robin,
here are a selection of photo's of the items Bob Hritz bought from a US vet, if you want further details contact him,
cheers,

Gary

[Gary Wood]

photo 2

[Gary Wood]

photo 3

[Gary Wood]

photo4

[Gary Wood]

photo5

[SgtB]

GOTT IM HIMMEL!!!!

And I thought I hit the jackpot when I got a vet's cigar box with 6 or 7
bits of SS cloth in it!

[Gary Wood]

photo 6

[Gary Wood]

There are pictures out there that show a lot of this insignia being worn also many more people now are looking more carefully at period photo's and photos are coming to light of insignia that many would scoff at if offered such item, recently K winker found in an album an officer from "DR" wearing a Czech made cuff title, and it was a very good clear shot of the style of band, when i first saw these bands I dismissed them as just a fake item due to there non German looking quality and script and the fact that the bands were only 6 stands.
below is a picture I found recently in footage showing the "MT" collar patch being worn by an officer, there is one picture already in cloth insignia of the ss of a different officer wearing such a patch, also the patch "H" again there is a picture in the above book of an officer wearing what looks like an officers version of this patch but on ebay a couple of years ago there was a soldbuch for sale which showed a enlisted Mann wearing the embroidered type, this is now in the hands of one of our forum member I think, I have a copy of that picture which I took from ebay, I was also sent a better picture in focus but until I can think who it was that send me it i cannot post that.

[Gary Wood]

The "H" collar pacth being worn

[Spitfire]

Incredible photos Gary - thanks for sharing

By the way, how does one get a hold of Bob Hritz?

thanks,

Al

[Perry Floyd]

Mr. Lumsden the vet linkage is rock solid. Many of the older pickers (which are collectors) for alot of the big dealers have purchased these items from 45th and 42nd vets in the past. Like the Balkencross flag thread some time back I would have to ask, How could this many veterans lie about the same item or have all brought back the same items with all having the same story? How could you get that many veterans to conspire with the same lie?
A clothing warehouse and a furniture building have been noted in wartime and postwar maps of the Dachau compound as well...