Spooky KZ item...

[PBR]

Graham,

Interesting.

May I ask, have you got your nice Boxer KD with provenance as part of a Police group?
Just curious anyway.

I didn't know Policemen used them, scary thing.

Guernika,
it's my belive that Patent and Boxer were actually Belgian produced but I can't confirm it.
Your one have the most common shape around and it was sold in different countries long before WWII.

BR

[Jareth]

Been waiting patiently for someone to post my favorite quote "buy the item NOT the story" period, done, end of story. the object stands for itself.

[John Pen.]

Gernika81,

Thanks for the arial pic. it is very cool.
I love the abilities that new technologies are giving us.

In the arial pic, do you know the purpose was of the building you circled in yellow? And, doesn't the one I circled in red seem that it was possibly from the same blueprint? That is a great photo.

Could I also offer a suggestion here?
If possible, you could mail a photo of the item and a print of the arial image to your "friend". He could then ask the "digger" to write on the back of each, information confirming details about the discovery of the item and approximately where found. The "digger" could be vague on exact location (IMHO), so he doesn't give away too much information about his "secret spot" if this is a problem for him.

Personally, that would be fairly good provenance.... better than nothing...... But may I add here that with this type of "povenance", the farther it gets from the original source, the less reliable it becomes. Anyway, it's just a thought, for establishing it's authenticity..... for your own peace of mind. Could also be helpful when showing others and incase you ever want to sell it.

Good luck, and let me know if you do this because I would be interested in knowing if the digger would participate.

Best,
John Pen.

[Gernika81]

Thanks TK. I didn't know these were made in Belgium... As I know (just a curiousity), the first knuckledusters as we know nowadays were part of the so called Apache revolvers used by criminals in France in early 1900s. The item speaks for itself. A complete weapon

[Gernika81]

Hi John. The exact place were it was found is that encircled in yellow. There, it can still be seen the remains of the ammo factory barracks. The other area that you circled in red may have been another building, but not sure about what it was for, or if it was a post 45 building or factory. The info provided by seller is that, so I will always believe that the item was found there. The person who sold it is very trustworthy for me, so I don't have any doubt about provenance. The item was found in situ, in that area of the Arbeitskommando.

Gernika81,

Thanks for the arial pic. it is very cool.
I love the abilities that new technologies are giving us.

In the arial pic, do you know the purpose was of the building you circled in yellow? And, doesn't the one I circled in red seem that it was possibly from the same blueprint? That is a great photo.

Could I also offer a suggestion here?
If possible, you could mail a photo of the item and a print of the arial image to your "friend". He could then ask the "digger" to write on the back of each, information confirming details about the discovery of the item and approximately where found. The "digger" could be vague on exact location (IMHO), so he doesn't give away too much information about his "secret spot" if this is a problem for him.

Personally, that would be fairly good provenance.... better than nothing...... But may I add here that with this type of "povenance", the farther it gets from the original source, the less reliable it becomes. Anyway, it's just a thought, for establishing it's authenticity..... for your own peace of mind. Could also be helpful when showing others and incase you ever want to sell it.

Good luck, and let me know if you do this because I would be interested in knowing if the digger would participate.

Best,
John Pen.

[Gernika81]

Hi Jareth. You're right. We must buy the item, and not the story. But, if you know an item has an interesting story behind, and you know that it's true because the source is reliable, why not to buy a story along with the item? In some cases, items are valuable only due to their provenance. The object stands for itself... yes, it's a KD. The story behind could have been whatever I wanted. I've transmitted what I was told when I bought it. I was trying to identify these items with KZs, nothing else. It's only a KD, of course...

Been waiting patiently for someone to post my favorite quote "buy the item NOT the story" period, done, end of story. the object stands for itself.

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

The KD is italian and dates back from the WW1.
Definitely it has been heavily used from fascists "squadristi" during the '20 and '30. I owned two , now are becoming quite scarces.

I have no doubt to agree with Ricardo about the finding place what I would only to hypothesize it's the fact that maybe it dates back actually to the WW1 period.

[Gernika81]

Hi Tora. You say that my KD is italian or that KDs were first produced in Italy? I think, as I posted before, that they were used in early 1900s by french criminals. But I haven't found further info about them. Maybe were an Italian invention...

[Tora_Tora_Tora!]

In my experience, your KD is an italian manufacture from WW1

[PBR]

The KD is italian and dates back from the WW1.
Definitely it has been heavily used from fascists "squadristi" during the '20 and '30. I owned two , now are becoming quite scarces.

I disagree.
Squadristi used everything was available at the time, so KuK Steinbruck Graz iron fist, trench clubs, Patent, Boxer, WWI so called "Italian Arditi" KD (a civil model IMHO), everything was brought back as war booty during WWI.
If you have any source for your suggestion I would love to have a look.

The KD shown by Guernika is a common shape model, sold worldwide even before WWI; as Graham said was often seen on sale in USA, but in Europe as well.
I don't actually know where these were made, but no infos of its italian production has surfaced so far.
That common shap KD was produced long before WWI, at the start of 1900.
http://www.knuckledusterbook.com/ind...nuckleinfo.htm

Guernika,
Yes, the Apache-KD gun was Belgian made, and was one of the first examples of such kind weapon, even if the KD was made from a middle-age weapon called "Iron First" or "Left Hand", an armored glove for hands.

BR

[SiPo]

These were also available in a variety of finishes as well. You could get these in steel, iron, aluminium, brass and complete with knuckle spikes or without.

These were used by the German police and as well as being advertised in catalogues, are also mentioned in Schmitt's "Waffentechnisches Unterrichtsbuch Für den Polizeibeamten."





Another period advert.

[Gernika81]

Thanks Graham. Really nice information.

TK. I thought Apache was a French invention... But as you say, and you are completely right, in medieval era, such kind of weapons existed. Taking into account their brutality, it's hard to believe that they didn't have such a weapon

By the way, in Spain those brass knuckles are known as: Puño americano or American knuckle. Curious...

Tora: I agree with T.K. You could post pics from your italian KD.

[PBR]

Hello Guernika,

Apache was a Belgian patent from 1869 (Dolne - Liege).
I'm actually trying to find older examples of KD, before 1860, since I cannot understand if Dolne patent was actually related just to the Apache gun or even to the KD in that construction.

I presume that "Puno americano" is actually related to the term Apache, at the time Apaches were indeed considered "native Americans".

BR

[Gernika81]

Yes T.K. you might be right. Nice conclusion. I'll do research on that. Wikipedia gives no much info about that item

[keitz12]

Boxer patent found from German positions in Estonia: