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**tgn** · 03-04-2012, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

We have all lost money in this Hobby to fakes. It's not fun, but it is how you respond to your losses that determines how sharp you are in the next Round of the endless Battle.

Well stated. I have purchased my share of fakes in my many years of collecting. Each of these I consider a lesson learned and a challenge to not make another mistake. Of course, I keep making them all they same...

Before the SOS, I always considered these badges to be extremely rare, maybe less than a dozen original examples known to exist. At the SOS I was disturbed to learn that a large hoard had been found and they were selling for way below the previous market value. But after reviving this thread, I know my original impression was correct. The originals are rare indeed.

**maestro** · 03-05-2012, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by SScollector View Post

.....There has never been so much info and attention giving to these badges before and I know that these events will spark new interests out there, especially due to all of the craziness that has been going on....
Chris

i personally believe knowledge begets knowledge, and that knowledge is an antidote to fear.

i really appreciate the information shared here by advanced collectors. i can't wait for a signed copy of Chris' book

**maestro** · 03-05-2012, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post

You get my respect for letting the Cards fall and not crying about it.

In the past when peoples Treasures get called out as fakes they threw tantrums and came up with silly things like, "It's real until you prove it's fake", which is silly, because in this Hobby it is "Fake until proven real".

We have all lost money in this Hobby to fakes. It's not fun, but it is how you respond to your losses that determines how sharp you are in the next Round of the endless Battle.

Appreciate it Doc; I think the highest form of ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about

let me know if you ever get tired of the twins you have and are willing to part with one

**Steve T** · 03-05-2012, 07:38 AM

If had one of those badges I be considering how many electrons I'd be prepared to lose, if any.

**Martin Stiles** · 03-05-2012, 07:48 AM

Chris, How will you know when the perfect fake is made?

Originally posted by SScollector View Post

OK, then why can't someone just show us that perfect copy?
I've been waiting a long time to see something like that.

When the day comes that there are bucket fulls of perfect fakes,
then I will resign from this hobby. However, I am not the slightest bit afraid of this because it just can't happen. Even coins that are made with the most highly sophisticated technologies cannot make a perfect coin that looks exactly like another coin of the same type, but from a different die,
even though they are made from the very same master die from a big machine. Talk to some coin experts and they can show you the flaws and differences amongst different dies that are made from the exact same master die. Of course, I agree that they can be very close and very dangerous, but never perfect, IMO.

By the way, the aluminum plated silver one that was posted last is
just covered with mistakes, (whether it was made by man, or by machine),
but does it really matter how they are made exactly?

Chris

**SScollector** · 03-05-2012, 08:40 AM

I don't believe that it will ever be made, but if it is, then the only way we could know, is if the fakers made too many of them or maybe by word of mouth. It could be very hard to tell or to prove, but this has never been done before, (without the existence of the original dies), so why start worrying about something that is so far fetched? Remember, a perfect
fake could never be spotted under magnification and aging, finish, die flaws, and everything would have to be absolutely perfect. When I started collecting ten years ago, I had heard these rumors and fears numerous times and have always said one thing, "Never has been, never will be,"
unless someone invents a way to physically replicate complex atomic structures.

The minute details and characteristics common to each pattern are just impossible to exactly duplicate.

Best, Chris

**tgn** · 03-05-2012, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by SScollector View Post

I don't believe that it will ever be made, but if it is, then the only way we could know, is if the fakers made too many of them or maybe by word of mouth. It could be very hard to tell or to prove, but this has never been done before, (without the existence of the original dies), so why start worrying about something that is so far fetched? Remember, a perfect
fake could never be spotted under magnification and aging, finish, die flaws, and everything would have to be absolutely perfect. When I started collecting ten years ago, I had heard these rumors and fears numerous times and have always said one thing, "Never has been, never will be,"
unless someone invents a way to physically replicate complex atomic structures.

The minute details and characteristics common to each pattern are just impossible to exactly duplicate.

Best, Chris

Philosophically speaking, if they really made an absooulutely perfect fake in every aspect, including metal compostiion, die flaws, etc. etc., wouldn't it in fact be real?

Given these parameters, though, they never will make a "perfect" fake.

Tom

**Naval Enigma** · 03-05-2012, 11:26 AM

It is wise to not worry about a perfect fake.

One would be well served to fret the "good enough fake" -- Good enough to sew enough doubt to crash demand for an item. There are tiers of experience, the top tier grizzled, battle hardened super-advanced vets are not going to be fooled (for long). It's the beginning, intermediate and advanced collectors who can be tricked.

Look at the Civil War market for CS swords.

This community is still small enough to police itself. The 2012 Tux Badge Caper is a classic example of bad guys going for the big score. It's just too tempting. Thank God the seven deadly sins always leave their mark.

If I had a bang-on According to Hoyle Aluminum Tux Badge I would be following this thread with content amusement. I don't. I want one. And I am concerned. Because it's going to come down to provenance and a lot more Dollars, Euros or Rubles to obtain one now than pre-SOS.

**maestro** · 03-05-2012, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by tgn View Post

Philosophically speaking, if they really made an absooulutely perfect fake in every aspect, including metal compostiion, die flaws, etc. etc., wouldn't it in fact be real?

Yes!!

**Serge M.** · 03-05-2012, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Naval Enigma View Post

It is wise to not worry about a perfect fake.
------edit-------

If I had a bang-on According to Hoyle Aluminum Tux Badge I would be following this thread with content amusement. I don't. I want one. And I am concerned. Because it's going to come down to provenance and a lot more Dollars, Euros or Rubles to obtain one now than pre-SOS.

Now that the 'kai Tux Repro Genie' is out of the bottle, what will happen to those who pulled the trigger and bought these sleds between $8,000 to $19,000 ? Anyone know is he refunding cash yet? Or if you 'traded', get your stuff back?
Or are those that do get it some or all back are sworn to secrecy cause others will not get jack - besides a 'unacknowledged variant' story?

-wagner-

**Vid** · 03-05-2012, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by wags View Post

Now that the 'kai Tux Repro Genie' is out of the bottle, what will happen to those who pulled the trigger and bought these sleds between $8,000 to $19,000 ? Anyone know is he refunding cash yet? Or if you 'traded', get your stuff back?
Or are those that do get it some or all back are sworn to secrecy cause others will not get jack - besides a 'unacknowledged variant' story?

-wagner-

Wags,

Sounds as though monies are being returned and Kai has cancelled his order for a new 911 Carrera Turbo, in Tuxedo Badge Silver.

K

**ErichS** · 03-05-2012, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Vid View Post

Wags,

Sounds as though monies are being returned and Kai has cancelled his order for a new 911 Carrera Turbo, in Tuxedo Badge Silver.

K

**Matthäus Klein** · 03-05-2012, 06:05 PM

**jimt** · 03-05-2012, 06:35 PM

breasts

Originally posted by Vid View Post

I did not say you would not get one, I said that the people I am talking to have no interest. I am not out of touch with anything and just looking at the situation as it is. I could have these things at my door as well, I know where they are just as you do.

You want to make me out to be out of touch and I am fine with that, but momma did not raise a fool as much as you would like to think. I know what I see and the training to recognize it. Is what it is.

Kris

You are so right, thanks .....................

**tgn** · 03-05-2012, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by Vid View Post

Wags,

Sounds as though monies are being returned and Kai has cancelled his order for a new 911 Carrera Turbo, in Tuxedo Badge Silver.

K

I talked with one of the buyers last Sunday. He traded for his example, and says that Kai will be returning the items he traded. Then he said something really annoying: "I wonder if he (Kai) was duped as well?" There you go, a ready made excuse to let him off the hook. Much easier to do this and let life go on than actually confront him on his crooked transaction.

You wait and see, Kai will be back at the SOS next year like nothing happened.

Tom

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