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**Sonny** · 10-29-2009, 12:41 AM

Yes Robert, that is the one that came out about two shows ago, but this time they put the right mfg number tag on it. Also wrong pip wrong era.

**sstuart13** · 10-29-2009, 01:34 AM

Tag

So your saying it originally came out with another incorrect RZM Tag and someone has now added the correct RZM tag? Do you have a picture of the collar tabs with the incorrect RZM tag?

**Sonny** · 10-29-2009, 07:39 AM

No I'm not saying that at all. The tab is fake and someone put a rzm tag on it with a known mfr co of this type tab.

**Peter v L** · 10-29-2009, 08:31 AM

Looks 100% original to me in all aspects, tk collartab, pip as well as rzm tag.

I think it is time for the nay-sayer to show us more of these collartabs which are supposed to be fakes, show us how one looks before it is sort of aged etc etc. You must have lot´s of pictures to show of the fakes that supposedly came out two years ago,

It seem that a lot of items have come out lately, specially the last two years as veretans have died of more rapidly. The Plabst group for instance which is one of the largest TV group find in a long time, it contained two of this type of tk collartabs.

Tell us the source and give pictures as well as proof.

For me it seems to be another "know-it-all" hype with no real proof behind it.

Till now I can only find proof for them being originals.

Peter v L

**Robert H** · 10-29-2009, 09:45 AM

For me it doesn't seem to be another "know-it-all" hype with no real proof behind it.

**Fritz** · 10-29-2009, 09:54 AM

I have been contacted by Robert via PM pointing out that the tabs are copies and also another member did contact me about that and he is welcome to join the discussion. I have been unaware of that thread until it had been brought to my attention by a fellow collector.

After all the claim that this pair is not right was based on:

- that others (small and big US names in the hobby) don't like them
- that they are all over the place
- that the embroidery is too dense
- a french guy sold these on the SOS (not an information provided by Robert but by the other member who contacted me)

We had a nice talk via PM but it has not been excessively constructive beyond the points presented above. I had asked for pics and further information but at this stage that was unfortunately unavailable.

If members here can show these exact skull tabs offered for sale anywhere or if they own such tabs please post your information. I know that three tabs with similar skull design are on a swedish (has one vertical pair) and a german (has one) dealer site, all of them originating from the Plabst group.

Yet I am not in doubt about the originality of the pair that I have on the estand. I base that opinion on the circumstance that two similar (vertical) ones were part of the Plabst group found in bavaria not long ago.

Robert also claimed that he had seen the whole group when it was first found and that such tabs were not part of the group then. I however have only seen a picture of a fraction of that group that was taken before the parts of the group were sold and that picture clearly showed two such tabs (the exact same tabs that are now being offered by Peter Lukas) as a valid part of the grouping. These two tabs have also been considered copies by Robert and the other member who contacted me.

I do value Robert's and the other member's concerns and all the circumstances involved are not making it very easy to research the matter but it can't harm to go through the work and maybe to come up with a satisfying result as to whether these are period pieces or not.

But it should be self-evident that it takes a bit more to some people than a "it's a copy" to write these (or any other) items off.

I would like to thank Robert for bringing this issue up and airing his concerns and I am looking forward to any information that might be provided by forum members.

Cheers

Fritz

**Peter v L** · 10-29-2009, 10:03 AM

Robert,

I am looking forward to pictures of the tabs in "un-aged" condition the type of backing they comes with and more info about where they are made what is exactly wrong with them etrc etc.

If not, it is definatly a "know-it-all" hype.

Cheers

Peter

Originally posted by Robert H View Post

For me it doesn't seem to be another "know-it-all" hype with no real proof behind it.

**Mike C** · 10-29-2009, 10:21 AM

A very well considered response by Fritz.

I think what is required are images of the TK tabs that had the bogus RZM tag (see post #2) for comparison against Fritz's tabs.

I have no skill in this field that would allow me to comment on these tabs (for or against) however it is my strong opinion that we still have much to learn in this hobby and that numerous quality pieces have been unjustly tarnished because of entrenched and out-dated beliefs.

Mike

**Fritz** · 10-29-2009, 10:36 AM

After some search this thread was found:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...uction+finland

This tab also shows a very dense embroidery and a very similar design to the tabs on Peter Lukas' site and the one posted by me.

Cheers

Fritz

**Peter v L** · 10-29-2009, 10:48 AM

Here you can see four TK tabs, these should all be fakes according to Robert, however he have expressed that he liked one in the thread posted above by Fritz. Robert must self explain why.

Look at the similarities and differences in them, I have tryed to show them with arrows. Does anyone really belive that a faker today would be able to make collartabs which are so close looking as these, but still all have small differences against eachanother? The nev fakes are made in embrodery machines made after a computor pattern they will all be exactly the same, there will be no fifference at all in them. The mirror pair are the ones coming from the Plabst group being restored.

I still want to see one of these tabs in unworn condition as it is sold according to the people not liking them. Why is it so hard to produce such a photo from the front and back of it?

For me these are all perfectly fine original tabs.

Cheers
Peter

**Robert H** · 10-29-2009, 10:59 AM

The one in the link from Fritz is a totally different tab then the one for vertical 39 or 40 vertical skull pattern in machine embroidered pattern.
The weave is normally totally different in style and thickness.

Here is how original ones look like for comparison, further original examples are shown in the Mollo or Angolia books as well:

http://ssvtmilitaria.com/GalleryInsi...tab%20page.htm

When someone means I am wrong I have no problem with it and who likes em should like em anyhow.

**Peter v L** · 10-29-2009, 11:20 AM

Robert,

These are all earlier numbered collartabs. They are all nice original ones, but have nothing to do with any of the posted tabs above.

Do you really not think the tabs from l39 and 40 where produced in much larger numbers and by far more manufacturer then the early numbered tabs where. The pic in Angolia and Mollo are really not the best and there are not a great variety of tabs shown in any of them. They are old books and not much of use today.

Show us the fresh pic of the fakes instead? How do they look when not "aged" what buckram backing do they have, where do they come from?

Everyone is naturally entitled to their own opinion, we are just having a discussion hopefully learning us all something more.

All the best

Peter

Originally posted by Robert H View Post

The one in the link from Fritz is a totally different tab then the one for vertical 39 or 40 vertical skull pattern in machine embroidered pattern.
The weave is normally totally different in style and thickness.

Here is how original ones look like for comparison, further original examples are shown in the Mollo or Angolia books as well:

http://ssvtmilitaria.com/GalleryInsi...tab%20page.htm

When someone means I am wrong I have no problem with it and who likes em should like em anyhow.

**Milan Gard** · 10-29-2009, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Robert H View Post

The one in the link from Fritz is a totally different tab then the one for vertical 39 or 40 vertical skull pattern in machine embroidered pattern.
The weave is normally totally different in style and thickness.

Here is how original ones look like for comparison, further original examples are shown in the Mollo or Angolia books as well:

http://ssvtmilitaria.com/GalleryInsi...tab%20page.htm

When someone means I am wrong I have no problem with it and who likes em should like em anyhow.

hello Robert

I have same opinion as YOU, you are 100% right.

Thx for your opinions

**Fritz** · 10-29-2009, 11:26 AM

Robert,
I think that the ones in your link are chronological further away to the ones we are talking about than the one that is in the link I have provided.

The ones on Grant's site that you are reffering to are very early IMO.

Also I don't understand why the fakers not just use the skull design we are talking about and put it on tabs like the one I have shown in the link, it seems that then they are ok?

Cheers

Fritz

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