ss/SD jacket from Norway

[NickG]

I don't understand why you keep on saying that this uniform is correct

Because I believe Brian L. Davis, a well respected uniform expert/book publisher... He refers to such irregularities as "anomalies" that according to him are known to have existed within the SD-SiPo branch...
but who knows?

The bottom line is that I like the uniform that started this thread and IMHO its not been played with other than the removal of the tresse which might have to do with the 1942 regulation to no longer wear NCO tresse... as shown below, but the old style boards were retained on that uniform for whatever reason...(lack of availability of proper insignia at the time? You can only speculate...)
Anyway its a part of the history of this neat uniform that started this thread. Perhaps not text book per the regulations, but that's not unusual in this hobby! I've learned that decades ago! I can show you period images of Fez headgear with Polizei insignia, try to find that in any regulations!

Its a so-called anomaly...just like the shoulderboard waffenfarbe discrepency that he is pointing out below... An anomaly is any occurrence or object that is strange, unusual, or unique. It can also mean a discrepancy or deviation from an established rule or trend See yellow below!
but I agree period pictures would be helpful showing W-SS style straps in combination with collars without NCO tresse, to make the case that this practice did occur.

[Richard P]

I would have to go along with everything Nick has explained. I too have liked this uniform from the first photos.

Could we see a photo of it with the collar open? Thanks,

Richard

[Glenn McInnes]

I like it too...Insignia looks to have been on it for a very long time.






Glenn

[SiPo]

Nick, I agree.

Fact - SD used SS/Wehrmacht style shoulder boards with green piping.

Fact - SD used Polizei style shoulder boards.

Fact - SD abolished use of collar tresse and B&W piping.

Just because there are no period photographs does not mean a certain combination of insignia was or was not worn.

As Nick and others have explained, SD uniforms quite often show anomalies regarding rules and regulations.

This is further evidenced by the use of the black/white piping which was also supposed to have been discontinued at the same time as the collar tresse.

There does appear to be a transition period and you do often see a mix of insignia. There are also instances were you see a blatant disregard for the regulations late on in the war with some old 'salts' still wearing B/W piping with police style boards.

You ask for photo evidence so please take another look at the pic in post 16.

In this pic, the man in the driving seat wears the correct style insignia for 1938/39. However, the NCO in the rear seat wears B/W piped collar & tabs and NCO's collar tresse but with SS/Wehrmacht style white piped shoulder boards, not SS-VT and yet this photo was taken Sep. '39 approx. 8 months prior to the authorization of the wearing of SS style boards. An "anomaly."

After the SS complained to Himmler about the SD/SiPo using their style boards, the RSHA added black underlay to the green piping in August 1941. These were'nt successful so the SS/Wehrmacht style boards were replaced with the police style boards of black and green.

In the pic below, you see the correct configuration of insignia as of the 1942 orders i.e B/W piping and collar tress discontinued and police style boards worn.

I do not find the mix of insignia odd at all on the uniform that started this thread.

[SiPo]

Hardigan,

Although the following photo is not SD/SiPo related, so please forgive me, I am posting it only to prove that there were anomalies concerning uniform regulations.

If some of these uniforms were to appear for sale today they would be laughed at and people would be demanding to see photographic evidence of their existence.

[walkuren]

I agree with NickG and hansen.Very nice and rare uniform.

Cheers ,

Ty

[Simon O.]

Gisle

Is the tunic from Norway? If so is the owner's name known or at least is it know where the tunic comes from? ie. can it be connected to at least an SD\Sipo station?

[billbert]

I want to also point out that this very nice original tunic appears originally in the first photo to have started life out as an army tunic.. eyes good or bad I think i see the WH eagle outline in 1st foto.. Billbert
On occasion this really was done and there are period fotos..

[Hardigan]

Hardigan,

Although the following photo is not SD/SiPo related, so please forgive me, I am posting it only to prove that there were anomalies concerning uniform regulations.

If some of these uniforms were to appear for sale today they would be laughed at and people would be demanding to see photographic evidence of their exhistence.

I'm almost crying behind my desk here !
I know , off Course there were exeptions !
The point is that NickG first made the statement that the insignia was correct but now suddenly it's an anomaly.

If you take off the Ehrenwinkel then in fact you have a SS-Geb.Jäg. tunic of a Foreign Vollunteer !

[SiPo]

If you take off the Ehrenwinkel then in fact you have a SS-Geb.Jäg. tunic of a Foreign Vollunteer !

And I totally agree with you. The blank collar tab may represent this and it is also possible that the tresse was taken off post war.

However, it is still perfectly reasonable to assume that this may also be an SD tunic as the configuration of this insignia is to me, not that unusual.

[SiPo]

please someone show me a period picture of a tunic........without tresse and 'W-SS shoulderboards'

Although not that clear, in this photo (taken from the net so cannot give correct credit) the NCO on the officers right appears to be wearing SS/Wehrmacht style boards and no collar tresse. All others appear to wear the police style boards.

[Hardigan]

These are definitely not W-SS shoulderboards , they are not that stiff.

[SiPo]

On the contrary. I do not think they are stiff at all.

I have yet to see SD polizei style boards exhibit this type of turn up at the end of the board near the button due to their rigidity. I have however, seen this type of turn-up on dozens of the thinner SS/Wehrmacht style boards.

To me they have the appearance of SS/Wehrmacht style boards. As I pointed out, this picture is not clear, and I very much doubt that you can say with certainty that these are "definately not W-SS shoulderboards."

[Hardigan]

I thought you meant the other one.
You can shape them in any form you want as you can see here.

[NickG]

I'm almost crying behind my desk here !
I know , off Course there were exeptions !
The point is that NickG first made the statement that the insignia was correct but now suddenly it's an anomaly.

The uniform that started this thread was given the thumbs up by me because it is fine "as is" and found "as is" (this according to the owner..untouched).
I was also PM'd about it after I defended its appearance which you attacked (DDR parts etc..) It clearly has the proper SiPo-SD pre 1942 W-SS style straps (which you attacked as not being SD-SiPo... by stating: "the shoulderboards are wrong for Sipo") and I disagreed.
It was pointed out by another post participant that it clearly had tresse at one time, hence the odd positioning of the tabs.
So it is not wrong....NOT BUILT UP LIKE THIS! Not a post war incorrect creation...
The only minor issue is that the tresse was removed which created the anomaly but ask the question; what collector in his right mind would remove the tresse? It was period done because of regulation changes but the straps just never got replaced... Why would that make this piece questionable?

Nice picture btw. It defends my point! Conversions were done! I bet that this tunic also had tresse (and W-SS style boards) at one time and converted. Note the high position of the tabs.
The uniform that started this thead has the same issue...it just was not entirely converted...still retaining W-SS style straps...not an issue to me.

An anomaly does not make a piece incorrect or unauthentic..it just makes a piece non-regulation (Like the temporary camp guards picture example in post 35, many wearing converted WH uniforms, some even with field gray straps and WH buckles, great example!). Its still authentic...(not incorrectly created) That's my point!