SS Armband?

[25thlight]

I thought this recent estate find would add to this discussion. These armbands came out of Dachau at the end of the war.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=321975

I dont think these were manufactured or intended for anyone but the SS.
Eddie

[25thlight]

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[CurtD]

I'm glad you posted those. I was going to myself.

I think this lends credence to the theory that they are unfinished SS armbands.

Since the black uniform was recalled at the start of the war, there was little demand for SS armbands. I think they just had a surplus and decided not to finish them until required.

[25thlight]

Hello Curt,
We have to rethink this whole theory.
I don't think these are unfinished armbands, there is no room for the black borders and they come from different makers.
These armbands were found at Dachau I assume waiting to be issued or sewn onto something.
Many items were produced at Dachau using pieces produced outside the camp, it was more of a assembly and distribution center.

Eddie

[VE45]

SS Armband

Hello Eddie, thanks for posting the photos. Your right, there is no room for the black bands on these armbands. I was looking through my Time Life book titled "The SS" and on pg. 42 it shows an SS wedding photo clearly showing an SS man wearing an unstriped SS armband on his brown-shirt (He is standing on the far right bottom). Regards, Jay

[VE45]

2

2

[wewelsburg]

ive got something,on the stand RIGHT NOW someone is selling a textbook ss band with the 275 maker {same as above}and it even is printed diagonally like these!!!!

[wewelsburg]

Ok here goes the armband with stripes is posted on the insignia stand by wolfcastle{member}and i dont want to reprint it here w/out permission,so if 25th light can post the closeup he has listed in the insignia for sale section with the 275 tag{like above}along with wolfcastle posting his example for sale you can see the same tags marked with the same diagonally printed 275 maker!!!!so what i have arrived at is the maker made striped bands and ones that are without are unfinished without stripes.Alao the time life picture on close inspection CLEARLY shows a stripe on the upper portion of the brownshirts armband.

[25thlight]

Hello Wewlsburg,
I like your attention to detail but it means nothing.
The maker stamp 275 is all over the place on these RZM tags and they are not all the same.
This maker produces other insignia and not just bordered SS armbands.
It makes no sense for a manufacturer to send unfinished insignia to Dachau for distribution.
Eddie

[CurtD]

There is a stripe.

[VE45]

Hi Curt, If you have the book that the photo came from please look at it closely. There are no stripes. There isn't room. You have played with the contrast and brightness to come up with a photo in an attempt to make your argument. I believe it is a slight shadow in the original photo. The stripe you claim to see would run right through the top of the circle and it isn't there. Also, why isn't the same stripe on the bottom? However, look at the SS man getting married. His armband clearly has the stripes. Regards, Jay

[25thlight]

Hello Jay,
I think I see borders as well, this is a very early picture that looks to be pre RZM anyway, so I'm not sure it helps us learn anything about these borderless SS armbands, they are a bit of a mystery to me but unquestionably real.
Does anyone have pictures of Gestapo or Police wearing the political armbands?
I had a different Dachau find a few years ago and all the items were SS except for some police sleeve eagles (police were part of the SS by this stage of the war anyway), one of which I still have. Maybe this is a possible answer to our question.
Something to think about.
Eddie

[CurtD]

Hi Curt, If you have the book that the photo came from please look at it closely. There are no stripes. There isn't room. You have played with the contrast and brightness to come up with a photo in an attempt to make your argument. I believe it is a slight shadow in the original photo. The stripe you claim to see would run right through the top of the circle and it isn't there. Also, why isn't the same stripe on the bottom? However, look at the SS man getting married. His armband clearly has the stripes. Regards, Jay

Not unusual for a pre-RZM armband. The roundel went right over top of the stripes on both of these.

[VE45]

2

Curt, good photo. I have never seen one of these armbands before. After seeing your photo I believe it may be the same type of armband in the photo I posted. After looking at the photo again, I see that the SS mans shirt looks a little washed out compaired to the others in the photo. Maybe we can't see both bands do to the brightness in that area of the original photo. However, I still do not believe these armbands in question are unfinished. In the case of my armband the cloth tag would have been sewn on in the process of construction due to the fact that it is sewn on. But Eddie's armbands have the paper tags. Wouldn't this tag be glued on as the final step of a completed armband as not to damage the tag during construction? Just a tought. I guess these armbands will be in question until someone can find photographic evidence of their use. Regards, Jay

[CurtD]

Since there is another one of these armbands on the e-stand that references this thread, I thought I would add to the discussion.

Since these were recovered from the SS Dachau clothing depot, this lends credence to the fact that they are related to the SS. But for what purpose, we may never know.

Here are the facts that we know

1) All written documentation/regulations for the SS and NSDAP state that the SS armband is to have black stripes -- for the brownshirt (traditions), the black tunic, and the black overcoat. Even for the black tuxedo. Period photos support this. Thus far, there has been no photo discovered that definitively shows a stripeless SS armband in use.

There were a lot of uniform regulation changes throughout the history of the SS. E.g. insignia (shoulder boards, collar tabs, cufftitles, etc.) for the black coat were changed several times. Himmler was constantly trying to get his men to obey the current regulations (with varying degrees of success). There is a great deal of documentation to support this. But, there has never been a regulation mentioning removal of the stripes from the armband or any documentation of Himmler or the RFSS staff trying to enforce it.

2) The black stripes were one of the first ways the SS distinguished themselves from the SA. I can't think of a reason they would want to stop using them and return to a basic party design.

3) After the introduction of the grey uniform, and especially after the start of the war, there was a tremendous drop in the demand for SS armbands. The black uniforms were required to be turned in for recycling. Himmler did intend for the black uniform to be reintroduced after the war. He didn't mention any changes to it, however.

4) On these Dachau armbands, the roundels are too large to fit within the stripes as they are supposed to on an RZM armband. So, this makes it unlikely that they are simply unfinished. Since they are from an SS clothing depot, it makes it unlikely they are SS armbands converted to party armbands.

5) The Dachau depot contained many SS insignias that were never issued.

6) The "overcoat" theory has no basis in fact and has its roots in a misprint in the early Jack Pia books.

The only 2 theories I can come up with are that they are either mistakes, or the product of an undocumented, planned change.