Here's a question..

[BenVK]

..that I don't think has been asked on this forum before, well, at least not lately.
What did the WSS think of their Heer counterparts, or vica versa?
From what I've read, regular Army troops, especially earlier on in the war, felt that they were trained and led in a very professional way where as the WSS were considered to be non-professionals with the importance placed on fanatisicm, obedience and camaraderie more than anything else.
It's interesting though because, as the whole system broke down, being a professional soldier must have counted for very little, especially on the Eastern front, where pure survival was the over riding factor. I can only imagine that being in a WSS unit at that time would have given you a bigger sense of unity and belief than being in the Heer, despite the fact that everyone must have felt that it was a lost cause.
I don't know, would be intersting to hear from people who have actualy talked to vets about this.

[Fred S]

I had this discussion with german army vets..that were french: LVF (Heer) and 7th sturmbrigade and Charlemagne div (Waffen SS): most of the time the answers were the same: depends of the place and the unit you have on your side.
Some good experiences and some bads, individual feeling count a lot as well.
In Poland the sturmbrigade (with Horst Wessel div)had some heer units on their side and had no problem with them, except than the russian mainly tryed to destroy heer units before attacking the "SS" kessel . So the vets could understand that sometimes the heer unit were fed up.
At least one time it had a lack of unity within the Sturmbrigade: a german SS NCO of the unity refused to take in his truck french SS wounded soldiers. When he heard about that, one french SS standartenoberjunker (Abel Chapy)shot him after other german SS from the same unity confirmed the fact.


In Pomerania it was a bit different: the russian rush to Berlin kicked everyone in the same time, and with the mix of units (heer, KM, luftwaffe or SS) showed sometimes a lot of unity and good fighting forces, sometimes it wasn't the case (the Charlemagne was a mix of ex-heer LVF, ex Sturmbrigade and french collaborationnists).

[BenVK]

Very interesting comments. I had no idea that the Russian high command targetted Heer units first. Is this documented proof? If it is, it underlines the fundamental question of this thread. Another is the fact that, as you say, some were French WSS soldiers, which is even more amazing.

[Chad1]

attitudes

This is a neat question.

I would imagine that it didn't matter much to the average guy. You would just be glad someone else was on your flank.

As far as fascism goes, I think as the war went on, the Army became more and more imbedded with it. After years of being saturated with propaganda and war related hardships, the common feeling must have began to become more and more along the Nazi lines, not to mention the older professionals getting killed off, only to be replaced with the younger, indoctrinated types.

I think it is important to recognize that the quality of the German Army really deteriorated as the war went on. Numbers wise, maybe it got bigger and producitonwise, maybe even better equipped, but there is no way they quality/professionalism of it could have stayed the same.

However, I think the number of "elite" units went up as the war went on. The reasons being 1) You can't fix every infantry regiment that was wiped out, but you can make one good one (maybe) if you pool all your best into one rather than spreading it out. 2) It's good propaganda to have elite units.

I think your typical full strength SS Panzer Division in late 1944 had something like 20,000 members. I might be wrong, but I think they army units were more like 15,000. No wonder the SS Divisions appear so much more effective.

[Fred S]

I think we can find it in books about french SS (most of books are in french...One in german as well, by André Bayle (17 years old NCO Sturmbrigade and Charlemagne).
If I can remember we had between 9 and 10 thousands french SS (can chex during the weekend).
I'd like to find time to open a thread about the french on eastern front...

[BenVK]

The question of Frenchman serving in the WSS deserves a whole forum, let alone one single thread .
I would just like to know about the attraction of joining the WSS in comparrision to the Heer considering the high casualty rate in the WSS.

[Stahlhelm]

From what I've read and seen in books and documentaries, I do at least have a conclusion--whether it is correct or not, I do not know for sure, of course.

I would say that the original pre-Waffen, pre-war degrading reputation of the SS as "asphalt soldiers" likely continued into the earlier years of the war. This also likely produced some mutual distaste for one another--both thinking they are better, more professional and elite than the other. What's worse is that I'd bet they were equally aware of their feelings about one another which likely didn't help things a bit. I really don't see how the Heer could have so quickly shaken the bitter thoughts they are said to have had initially--as the SS was forming and quickly overshadowing the glory of the common soldiers via parades, special fanfare, and preferential treatment in general.

However, as someone above smartly pointed out, I doubt that such distaste and rivalry continued so much, if at all, as the war progressed. In the thick of battle, facing death at every turn, I'd say that most soldiers of any type were mostly just appreciating and respecting the support from whatever other soldier was on their side. I'd say that most of that is stuff you think about, when you don't have anything else to think about. During the war, from what I've read and seen, the SS and the regular army seem to have been regularly supporting one another and effectively fighting together anyway.

For what it's worth, I've also read and heard that some of the regular soldiers were aware of the brutal reputation of the SS, and didn't like them for that. However, from other credible sources, I conversely read that the regular army was eventually equally-involved in such attrocities. So, as far as that being any reason for one to form an opinion of the other, I cannot see it at this point, based on that conflicting information.

As I said, these are just my thoughtful opinions on this issue, based on what I have learned. I'm not saying it's a fact, but it just seems that the answer to this question can also be as much a result of logic as it can be from the opinions of actual veterans. Forming a conclusion based on veteran opinions would itself require a huge and comprehensive sample from many different divisions, in many different theaters of battle to be anywhere near valid. That sure wouldn't be easy to do! So, in this case, forming a logical conclusion based on common sense and what is known may be the best and most valid thing that can be done.

Chris

[Robert H]

From my talks I got with German vets and from alot of books there was a difference, training for the WH was known and used since the Reichswehr time. We know that Papa Paul came up with the training strategies that was kind of new at these times German world, also not to forget about the famous Junkerschulen system. There the soldiers did not only received battle or tactical training it was very importand also to get them ethical well trained (a very interesting system to read about). From German veterans I heard very often "the SS was fighting the s* out from the enemys but got extrem heavy casualtys". Then who was 39 in Poland received his first experience where someone learnd from it from the front-line experinece. That moved then further on with the next wars ...
As always later on new SS ler's came in the lack of training was pronounced automaticly. Front experinece and the trained moral is the big issue.

[N.C. Wyeth]

I once met and had quite a few lengthy discussions with an ex-SS-Hitlerjugend member that gave me a real sense of his belief in the "political fight" perspective, and he often said that he felt that none of his counterparts in the Wermacht felt the same strength of dedication to the same cause in fighting. Granted, this view was cast by him after 50 years of in-depth foreign documentaries about the same subject at hand that he had greatly enjoyed viewing/discussing tremendously in private over just about as many years of living in the U.S. . . . After our talks, I always walked away never truly feeling comfortable that I was honestly receiving his true and impartial perspective on the entire subject . . .

Brad

[Fred S]

The question of Frenchman serving in the WSS deserves a whole forum, let alone one single thread .
I would just like to know about the attraction of joining the WSS in comparrision to the Heer considering the high casualty rate in the WSS.

Hi Ben, it's of topic but to answer to your question here's a resume:


Just at the beginning of Barbarossa, french collaborationnists wanted to go on eastern front to fight communism (but not to join the german army: they believed that they would fight under french uniform....) so they created the Legion des Volontaires Français LVF (French Volunteers Legion), training and communications in french language, with german officers for connexion with headquarter...

The LVF was a mix of collaborationnists (all fighting each other, as french are good for); ex french professionnal soldiers that wanted to fight (some joined cos they didn't want to join De GAULLE in England), people looking for adventure, some outlaws that wanted to hide, hungry people that believed they would have better food that in France,....So not what you would call homogeneous motivations.
Marechal PETAIN gave partially his support to the LVF and the german Headquarter didn't feel comfortable with this Legion and didn't make it best to make it increase.
Anyway, the LVF fought from dec 41 (about 40/50 kms from Moscaw) till september 1944.

Individually, some french (not from Elsass or Lorraine) have been able to join proper germanic SS division but unfortunately there are no records of it.
Some french SS-PK were on western front and eastern front as well.

The french that joined the SS in 1943 were more political, younger that most of the LVF soldiers, wanted to fight for Gross Europa and didn't want to join a "french" formation such LVF.
Some of them first join the NSKK to try later to join individually again german SS divisions.
While the french government gave its permission to create a french SS brigade in july 1943, those young guys knew and believed that they wouldn't fight for France and under german uniform, that's a big difference.

Training was in german and they learned as quick as they could this language.
When they were first engaged in 1944 inPoland (Galicie) they were subordinated to the Horst Wessel in august 1944and everything was fine.

September 1944, the SS hauptamt decided to gather all french under german uniform (NSKK, Todt, LVF, KM and of course the sturmbrigade) in one SS division that we'll be the 33th, Charlemagne. The french Milice joined as well after the liberation of France.
Some 1940 french POW joined as well.

As you can imagine the creation of this melting pot wasn't easy, LVF treated former french SS as "Jerries", former SS treated them as "poor frenchies" and went on speaking german.
the KM didn't want to be SS pz grenadiers, the Milice didn't know what they were doing there: a mess!
Finally after a good drill things turned better and when the Charlemagne had to fight russians they were all comrades.
3 french were RK in Berlin: Henri Fenet (former SS), Eugene Vaulot (former LVF) and François Apollot (former 1940 french POW, and KM).

Some individuals case of joining the Charlemagne are known as well.
I had the luck to meet André B. (R.I.P) a few years ago: he left France during the Liberation and joined the Charlemagne, he wasn't from the Milice or any Vichy organisation, and was only 16. He never told me his motivations but he told me that he didn't like englishmen and communism...
As he joined individually the french government had no records of him as a collaborationnist and as most of Charlemagne files disappeared, he came back to France in 1945 without any problem.

None of the french vets I met motived their engagment in one or other formation due to casualties.

I edit my post as I've forgotten some special stuff:
LVF had some north african soldiers, some french carribeans soldiers (black soldiers) and a few jews.
When the LVF joined the SS, the black soldiers wanted to join as well but the SS Hauptamt had a polite refused.
They ended the war as free workers in Germany and then in french jails post may 1945.
The sturmbrigade had one jew (maybe more...no one never known exactly for reason you'll easily understand). It seems he ended in the Charlemagne.

[Guymauve]

Hi Wolhans

September 1944, the SS hauptamt decided to gather all french under german uniform (NSKK, Todt, LVF, KM and of course the sturmbrigade)

I have read in "39/45 Magazine" n° 114 in "le bataillon français du NSKK-Motorgruppe Luftwaffe" by Henri Mounine that any frenchs don't join the Charlemagne division :
"C'est à Odensee, le 28 janvier 1945 que le Staffelführer Seigel au cours d'un discours, annonce l'existence de la 33è Waffen-Grenadier der SS "Charlemagne". 90% des français sont volontaires pour la rejoindre : ils seront punis de 3 jours d'exercices intensifs!"
If you want to translate, my english is too bad
Cheers

[Fred S]

Hi Wolhans

I have read in "39/45 Magazine" n° 114 in "le bataillon français du NSKK-Motorgruppe Luftwaffe" by Henri Mounine that any frenchs don't join the Charlemagne division :
"C'est à Odensee, le 28 janvier 1945 que le Staffelführer Seigel au cours d'un discours, annonce l'existence de la 33è Waffen-Grenadier der SS "Charlemagne". 90% des français sont volontaires pour la rejoindre : ils seront punis de 3 jours d'exercices intensifs!"
If you want to translate, my english is too bad
Cheers

Thanks for the info, here's a translation then:
"odensee, january 28th 1945, Staffelführer Seigel told the french NSKK members that the Div Charlemagne was created. 90% of the effectif wanted to join, they were punished with 3 hard drill days".

When I wrote that the SS hautpamt wanted all the french to join the division, I should add that it wasn't effective and of course some german units kept their own frenchies, and this is a good example: as the Charlemagne moved to front feb 17th 1945, it was already too late.

[Huntzman]

..that I don't think has been asked on this forum before, well, at least not lately.
What did the WSS think of their Heer counterparts, or vica versa?

Sadly, with each passing day it becomes harder and harder to ask these veterans.

I will say that from my "readings" there was a large amount of animosity directed at the WSS from the Heer. Whether or not that dissipated during the war truly depends on where you happened to be fighting and who was commanding you.

If you can get past the "dryness" and the lack of a pure chronological read, Heinz Hohne's "Order of the Death's Head" is a must read for anyone interested in the story of the SS. It shatters the myth of the German "dotted I's and crossed T's" organizational Utopia. When you peel back the facade you are left with a chaos that makes it more akin to a Uber-dysfunctional family rather than the Teutonic Paradise everyone envisions.

While there are numerous examples of seething animosity and hatred sited, there are equally noted examples of mutual respect and appreciation. One such incident involved Otto Kumm. In January 42 Der Fuhrer was thrown into a position by the Volga to fend off a Russian advance while General Model (C in C / 9th Army) could muster enough manpower in the south to deal a deaths blow. In -52 C temps, they pushed the Russians back day by day. In February the victory was won and they were relieved. Model met Kumm and informed him that "he could not imagine what they had gone through" but explained that he simply "could not do without them". When Model asked him what his current manpower strength was Kumm replied that his Regiment was on parade outside. Of the 2,000 men that started off the offensive, 35 survived.

I believe that the tenacity of the WSS impressed even the most harshest critic. Unfortunately that tenacity earned them ever increasing "front row seats" and they were engaged in a battle of attrition that they could never hope to win. Truth be told, more than one Heer officer opted to use the "bastard children", rather then his own men, for a particularly tough battle.

Russian Major General Artemenko once remarked that the Russians had "breathed a sigh of relief when the division (Viking) had been relieved by army units".

Sadly, in the end, they truly became the "alibi" of a nation.

Andrew