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Last edited by BlackBelt; 04-29-2009, 12:48 PM. -
Red was for best and green was for use in the field. Officers and men all wore the red for best. I can't say 100% but I would imagine that given the time frame officers would have flatwire insignia, can't remember ever seeing one though.
Ian. -
That has been the same information floating for years, which leads me to the question. There are no photos, that I am aware of that shows any enlisted man wearing a red fez? Yet tons of photos of Officers wearing them. One would think that if indeed enlisted wore them for "thier best" then the certainly an inspection by the Grand Mufti would qualify as a time to wear it. Anyone else got input?Originally posted by Ian Hulley View PostComment
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Fez
My understanding is that the red fez was worn by both enlisted and officers for "walking out", but I'll have to check my references on any pics of enlisted wearing the red version..."We all have it coming, Kid" ("Unforgiven")Comment
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Red Fez
Red Fez..
"We all have it coming, Kid" ("Unforgiven")Comment
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Originally posted by billmunny View Post
Your right about the references. I too for a long time believed the same, but my opinion is starting to shift. I can find plenty of photos of Officers wearing both the red and green versions, but as of yet I have never seen one photo of an enlisted man wearing one (at least that I can recall).
Here is a thought............what if the red fezes found at Dachau were INTENDED to be issued, but do to the lack of supply routes at this time, they were simply not sent? The number of fezes found certainly correlates to the probability. Lets face it, "dress" uniforms were not high on the list of items that needed to be shipped to Yugoslavia to a division that most Germans in the SS resented. This could be possible, the unit was ill equiped after its initial training in France. So if basic supplies were not being met, why should a "dress uniform."
cool 2nd picture!Last edited by BlackBelt; 10-12-2007, 04:51 PM.Comment
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Blackbelt, I agree with you.Not long ago I considered posting the same topic on GDC forum.Back years ago I remember the thought on these were that the red were for Officers and green/grey for enlisted.The older reference books stated the same.Then in recent years the train of thought has been simply that the green/grey was field use and red was walking-out/dress use.However like you...I believe the red fez was for Officers....and possibly senior rank German NCOs.I also have "Himmlers Bosnian Div.(excellent book and recommended for those that dont have it) and as you stated there are no photos in that book or anywhere else that I can find that show anyone other than Officers in red fez.I concluded that if the troops were going to wear their red fezs it would have been during inspection by the Mufti......but they do not.Also the insignia found on many (if not most) of the red fezs is Officer quality insignia.Comment
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Is there any factual basis for this statement?Originally posted by BlackBelt View Post
If some in the Waffen-SS did not want these men in their ranks (as I have read) I do not think that we can conclude that most Germans in the SS resented them.
Kindest Regards,
JohnComment
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Originally posted by John T View Post
According to many accounts from the German cadre, and as evidenced by the attempted mutiny while training in France. It has been stated many times that the German cadre of NCO's etc treated the Muslim recruits with distain.
I have searched every avenue that I could find that would show any enlisted man wearing a red fez, and I found nothing. I am of the opinion that based on photographic record, and lack of official orders regarding fezes that only Officers wore the red fez with dress uniform. "Himmlers Bosnian Div" is in my mind the definative source on most things Handschar, but does not go into detail about their uniform regualtions (which is a shame). Does anyone here have other info? This is a big deal in Waffen-SS head dress, and really should be discussed in earnest by our collective minds on the board.Comment
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A good topic. But I've always felt that the sheer number of red fezzes in circulation kind of puts to rest the theory that they were only for officers. I can't quote numbers, but I doubt that there were THAT many officers in the muslim divisions. Plus many, if not most, were Germanic anyway, and probably avoided wearing the fez for obvious reasons if and when possible. In other words, why are there so many red "officer' fezzes floating around, when there were only 2 or 3 (on paper at least) divisions that wore them, and so few officer visors (comparatively speaking) floating around,when every single zero from every one of the 30-odd other divisions (multiplied ten-fold due to attrition rates) probably owned at least one, often two or three. Blackbelt's theory that they may have been simply unissued stock is a very sound arguement and deserves further discussion, but many of those that I have viewed or examined in the past exhibited honest wear IMO.
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