SS Officer Hans Flugel Information

[ChrisM]

I would like to see the photos

Felix,
My yahoo email address is:
ltmcgee34361@yahoo.com

I would be very interested in seeing the pics of the cross. Mine has a very heavy patina to the back as the silver is .950 proof. I do not have the cross on me right now as it is in the lock box but I do not believe that it has a maker mark. I may be wrong about this, but the information that I have received seems to indicate that commercial iron crosses were not often made out of such a high grade of silver. This coupled with the lack of a maker mark led me to infer that this was a private purchase cross. Also, I would be happy to send you scans of it, but alas, I spend too much on medals and stuff to be able to afford a digital camera. Sorry.
Thanks,
Chris

[ChrisM]

Mark

You must understand that I am in the history department at my university, I have very little knowledge of what my peers in the science building do. I simply asked a chem. prof. if it would be possible for him to examine/test the cross and tell me what he could about it. I believe that he made it some sort of a lab project out of it and subjected the cross to several tests (all of which he assured me ahead of time would not alter the appearance or nature of the item). As to what the tests were, I am afraid that I cant tell you. The info that I got back though, I would be happy to share with you. My friend told me that it was his determination that the cross was composed of .950 proof silver. He also indicated that the Patina that had developed inside the engraving was the same as that found on the smooth surface of the back of the cross. The patina was also said to be age induced and not the result of a chemical alteration like emmersion in sulfuric acid or other forging practices of the like. I asked if an age could be given for the ammount of patina that had built up in the engraving and on the back of the cross and he said that it would fall within the c. 60 year range. Aside from the chemical tests, I sent the cross around to some collector friends of mine (not recognized experts to be sure, but collectors with much more time and experience in the hobby than I have) and asked them to confirm that the cross itself was authentic, their unanimous feeling was that it is WWII vintage. That evaluation coupled with the results from whatever tests they did in the science building gives--for me at least--a good basis to call this an authentic piece.
Thanks,
Chris

[Felix]

Curious about your reply

I have send the pics to your e-mail; Let me know what you think.

/ Felix

[F.K.Müller]

Hi Felix and Chris...could you inform me also about this event...I am really interested!!
vcp70@hotmail.com
Thanks!!

[WARLORD]

The cross could be easily aged by, engraving the dedication and then subjecting the cross to sulpher dioxide gas. This will form a very nice paterner that if gently rubbed with the fingers will give the impresion of 60 years of natural absorbtion of polutant.

[Prosper Keating]

Re: No, I stay away from Ebay

Originally posted by ChrisM
Felix,
This cross came from a private collector whom I know through a mutual friend in Fukuoka, Japan. That is very interesting about a similarly engraved cross on ebay...are you sure that it was Hans Flugel? If so, it must have been a copy. Were there photos of it on the auction? My cross has very distinctive gothic style engraving.
Thanks,
Chris

Muller,
I purchased this piece from a European collector who had in turn purchased it from an Allied officer who took it from H. Flugel at the time of his capture/interview. The collector purchased the medal over 40 yrs. ago, and as Flugel lived well past the end of the war he had the opportunity to confirm that it is genuine.

Chris,

Welcome! Always nice to have new members. Did Herr Flugel issue a written confirmation that the cross in question is genuine? Did you acquire relevant correspondence from the collector? Collectors, particularly of the older generations, are often quite meticulous about filing and keeping records of contact with veterans, particularly those whose medal and documents they have acquired, even indirectly.

Regarding your inability to buy a digital camera because you spend all your money on militaria, you must have scanners at work. Simply place the cross on a scanner, make front and rear views of it, and e-mail it to one of us so that we can post it here for you. I am sure any of us will be more than happy to oblige.

When you describe the inscription as "heavy gothic", what exactly do you mean? It is normally a style of engraving that rings alarm bells when found on 3rd Reich era awards. But then, of course, it depends on what you mean by your description. But we could discuss this until the moon turns blue. A picture is worth a thousand words. So show us some pictures.

Best regards,

Prosper

[Gary Wood]

Chris,
I think posting pictures of this cross is the way forward, if you have difficulty posting I am more than happy to post the pictures for you as I am sure many others here will help you post the picture.

cheers,
Gary

[Felix]

I have pictures to post...

...To fill in some info about the cross at Ebay sold a couple of months ago. But I need someone to post the pictures for me. In my opinion the cross at ebay may be real but the engraving is fake. Look at the spelling of ABt and Wiking. And also wouldnt someone engrave the date of award instead of just the name and info? I think the person already knew what his name and rank is but would like to remember the event instead.

I hope I can get help with posting the pics...

/ Felix

[Tony Barto]

Hi Felix;

Welcome to the forum! If you'd like, send the pix to me at tobias@neo.rr.com and I'll post them for you.

[Ian Hulley]

Gentlemen,I hope this doesn't apply here but I just found this over on "the other place" and it brought this post to mind.
http://daggers.infopop.net/2/OpenTop...3&m=9663041307 there seems to be a lot of repro's turning up with a similar hinge too.
regards Ian Hulley.

[Tony Barto]

Thanks Prosper for the help! Please see below for the photo that Prosper was kind enough to post as I posted it originally in the wrong thread. My comments about the cross from the other thread:

Hi Felix;

Sorry about the mixup in where to post the pix. Unfortunately, the engraving isn't the only thing that's fake. The cross itself is fake.

[Prosper Keating]

Going one better, here are the pictures of the EKI in question which were accidentally posted in the wrong thread.



I have to agree with Tony Barto - not that I recall ever disagreeing with him! - that there is something odd about this cross and the engraving.

First of all, why would an SS officer - or any German officer of the WW2 era for that matter - engrave information upon his EKI that would be of use to the enemy? Surely he would just put his name, the date of the award and perhaps his unit Feldpost number on the back. I have seen 1914 EKIs with names and units engraved on the reverse but I cannot recall seeing a 1939 EKI with unit details 'in clear', as signallers say.

But furthermore, I have checked the Wiking order of battle as it was throughout its existence and have not been able to find "SS-Panzer-Abteilung 5". We have: SS-Panzer Regiment 5, SS-Panzer Artillerie Regiment 5, SS-Panzerjager-Abteilung 5, SS-Panzer-Aufklarungs-Abteilung 5, SS-Panzer-Pionier-Batallion 5, but no "SS-Panzer-Abteilung 5". Maybe I am mistaken.

Maybe the person who engraved Flügel's EKI made a mistake. But I would have thought that an SS officer who bought, if the story is to be believed, a solid silver EKI only to have the engraver screw it up would have been rather annoyed and would have insisted in the engraver putting it right. And if it were engraved for Flügel in the field, then one would expect the SS kamerad doing it to know his own unit designations. But maybe someone got it engraved for him, like his wife or his mother, and got the precise unit details wrong. Things like that can happen.

Assuming that the cross is genuine, of course. Can someone post a Meybauer EKI for comparison? As an SS-Hauptsturmführer Hans Flügel was awarded the RK on October 16 1944.

Prosper Keating





Prosper Keating

[Prosper Keating]

From the WAF archives, a typical pin assembly on L/13-marked Meybauer EKI, described as an "early Meybauer pin assembly".



Another 1939 EKI by Meybauer:



An unmarked EKI identified on this forum as a Maybauer piece. Note the 'worm tunnels' under the core finish.





Prosper Keating

[Craig Gottlieb]

What ever happened to this discussion? Did the cross originally appear on Ebay? What was determined about the authenticity of the engraving? I did my own research in my "Walther-Peer Fellgiebel" Knight's Cross recipeint list (the red book) and see that Flugel was in "SS-Pz-Rgt.5" and not SS-Pz-Abt.5" - so would be interested in seeing what became of this discussion Thanks!

[Bob Coleman]

I would be very careful regarding engraved back medals. There is a well known dealer living in the eastern United States who is a master engraver and has produced numerous faux engravings on the rear of genuine medals. I would never buy a piece like this on Ebay and would have serious doubts about any piece without a rock solid provenance straight back to the original source. Unforunately, people will lie to out from under their own mistakes. I have bought numerous medals from veterans over a 45+ year career in collecting. Further, I have seen 1000's of medals owned by dealers. It has only been within the last ten years that suddenly these engraved back medals have been appearing in the collector market.
Bob