Complete Allegemeine SS officers uniform

[CWP]

John those are some really astute observations. This thread is quite entertaining in a way. Next time you are at a militaria show count the number of men who are wearing suspenders AND a belt as if one or the other would not be enough to keep those pants up. That is a phenomenon I only see at gun and militaria shows.

[bwanek1]

It looks like out poster didn’t like the answer he got here. After being told on the 12th that there is no way in hell he posted this on the 13th.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...=896908#896908

Either he doesn't recognize the expertise of the gentlemen here who have told him in no uncertain terms that it is an obvious fake or he is simply in denial. I find it funny when people "shop around" for opinions until they hear one they like (which agrees with their own) and that becomes the one "expert" opinion which validates their belief, in spite of the numerous other valid opinions to the contrary and even often in spite of overwhelming empirical evidence which counters their belief.

[John Pic]

Hi Donald Not picking on you but did you realize you started something has anyone noticed the trend in using the words "colleague, concur,esteemed," After a while everyone started talking like they were educated at Oxford. They sound good coming from Donald but from his "esteemed internet colleagues?".....indeed.....Whats up with that?? Oh well " Pi Pa Po".

[Donald Abenheim]

pp.

Hi Donald Not picking on you but did you realize you started something has anyone noticed the trend in using the words "colleague, concur,esteemed," After a while everyone started talking like they were educated at Oxford. They sound good coming from Donald but from his "esteemed internet colleagues?".....indeed.....Whats up with that?? Oh well " Pi Pa Po".

Dear John, I think you overstate things with your normal rhetorical flourish. Sayle F is more rough and ready with his posts. Nor was I educated at Oxford, either, actually; but, as my most devoted fan here says, I am a "pompous egg head.." I cannot jump over my shadow, but let us not diverge. In particular, "Pi pa po" was widely used in German military, actually, in the 1980s---an impressionable time in my life. I learned it there, in fact. I guess the Feldjaeger in Hessen did not use this expression, but the Generalstaebler in Bonn surely did. All this notwithstanding, you have your own literary gifts, my friend, as concerns your rendering all the types at a militaria extravaganza. Your account of the kinds of personalities is quite accurate. By the way, why does not someone post an image of some authentic militaria to freshen things up some? I did so on the German daggers/uniform forum, where I enclosed images of authentic black officer's caps. Go figure. Servus! By the way, I do think the demand above for evidence or proof as to why a given piece is fake reflects a logical requirement. The problem arises when the provision of said proof offers aid to the enemy. I always try to split the difference with as much evidence as possible rendered in prose, as well as some operational security, so as to prevent the faker from screwing me later. As to the problem of people profiting from my/our knowledge, I suppose this concerns me less than some here. I have made more friends, I think, in this connection, really. The key is always to learn much more than others, and with more determination.

[RobertE]

I think you are all jumping on this seller with entirely too much enthusiasm. He asked questions anyone of us could have asked. So what if he returns volleys? He's just trying to determine whether any portion of this set is any good; he's got return rights and is just trying to make up his mind what to do - perfectly normal.

This forum has been a great asset for me. Thus far, folks have refrained from disecting my every utterance and shoving them back in my face - this buyer needs help, and that's it. Questioning his determination and sincerity of the hobby and accusing him of opportunism is lousy - find a collector who hasn't looked for the knights cross sold as an EK and I'll wash his car for free.

Another thing - there are any number of references, and this forum is one of them. But we're not collectively the burning bush - couching things in final and academic terms for such a tricky hobby says more about ego, and less about effort to assist this collector. The fact he doesn't go skipping away after we've imparted our sage advice doesn't mean he's disregarding your opinions, merely that he's still trying to make up his mind.

He's not being rude or arrogant - we are. I believe he's trying to determine if the blouse itself is any good.

s/f Robert

[Donald Abenheim]

In fact...

As a matter of record, I provided the Citadel Oberjunker with images of authentic material, and I did so off-line. I am sure said data will aid him in his further development as a collector. Viel leisten; wenig hervortreten; Mehr sein als scheinen.

[Antiquefrog]

Gentlemen, please! Various - 1) I think this thread, both informative and amusing, is nearing an end; 2) I think most of us agree that the original uniform in question is doubtful on various counts; 3) To assail Dr. Abenheim's detached point of view is ludicrous, in my view; no one has spent more hours and days online trying to help other collectors. Perhaps you do not favor his tone of voice or scholarly wording, but to all of us who have heeded his advice, his senior status in this community is well-deserved.

[RobertE]

My comments weren't directed at Donald - they were directed at members who went guns up on this buyer, collectively. I stand by my comments, and hope we can be more helpful and less condecending in future "help" threads.

[Donald Abenheim]

Gentlemen, please! Various - 1) I think this thread, both informative and amusing, is nearing an end; 2) I think most of us agree that the original uniform in question is doubtful on various counts; 3) To assail Dr. Abenheim's detached point of view is ludicrous, in my view; no one has spent more hours and days online trying to help other collectors. Perhaps you do not favor his tone of voice or scholarly wording, but to all of us who have heeded his advice, his senior status in this community is well-deserved.

Thanks for this. I took no offense at the intervention of Robert E, in fact. If we all faced one another across a table like gentlemen, I am sure much of this exchange would be more felicitous. The computer screen and Tastatur often summon the innerer Schweinehund---I do exclude my friend in Oregon in this connection, because he has a special role to play here and elsewhere. And, the beginner seeks a certainty and surety from us that are beyond the means of most of us. There is also the element of art, craft and intuition in all of this old, stinking woolens. How does one communicate this aspect, as well?

[Gary Wood]

Andrew,
the cuff title on the tunic is an enlisted type yet this is an officers tunic, the cuff title is anyway a fake, see below your title followed by an original title

[Gary Wood]

original EM title

[Gary Wood]

the chevron on the sleeve of the jacket is supposed to be an Old campaigners chevron, it is not it is HEER fatigue tress which is grey with black stripes were as the old campaigners type is aluminium woven with black stripes

[Gary Wood]

this is what it should look like

[Gary Wood]

A lot of other things have been pointed out in post's above as well
cheers
Gary

[Donald Abenheim]

the devil lies in the details....

Andrew,
the cuff title on the tunic is an enlisted type yet this is an officers tunic, the cuff title is anyway a fake, see below your title followed by an original title

To amplify my British colleague's visual essay here, the regulations of the Verfuegungstruppe from 1934 onwards (see Mollo, vol. III, pp. 96-97) prescribed alu Effekten on its black tunics, in contrast to the Allgemeine SS (which later followed suit, too, in fact....) Whether this practice obtained in 100% of cases, I do not know. It does seem to obtain in 100% of the authentic Verfuegungstruppe tunics I have seen in my brief time of forty years, though. Granted the black tag in your piece at hand (which dates the piece to after 1936, ca. 1937-1939 or so...maybe...the tunic might be an ex-Lenfilm piece...maybe wholly fake..I cannot tell from the images....it is the minority of officer's tunics that have the black tag, in fact. Generally officers had their tunics tailored versus the issue type...however, some tailored tunics have tags and some officers wore issued tunics...confusing, nez pas?) the tunic should really have alu badges throughout. Hence, an Aermelstreifen with the graue Bestickung as in your example is a radical diversion from the norm. See, as well, the appearance of Gary Wood's wonderful example. Peter Jenkins has a pile of authentic Ehrenwinkel on his site at the moment, in addition to the one posted by colleague Wood. The sum of these details speak volumes. One has also to learn to recognize authentic embroidery versus the legion of fakes. The electronic pictures can surely help with this, but you also have to look at this stuff with a lense in the here and now. This latter aspect forms a problematic desideratum in your requriement of us to enable you swiftly and easily to recognize the authentic from the fraud. I, myself, have to look at the appearance of the embroidery next to other pieces; in varying light; at different times of day...etc. or, as JPic writes, pi pa po.