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**Bob Hritz** · 05-12-2006, 08:55 PM

I hope you have a mess plate tucked in your trousers when dealing with whoever is trying to stick it in your a$$, if that is what is really happening.

I have a hard time believing any of this 'vet' story tripe. Better luck next time, with the trash you have posted.

Bob Hritz

**Bob Coleman** · 05-12-2006, 09:08 PM

it is very common for the dealers in fakes to salt things such as period coins, matches, cigarettes, etc. in fake tunics. Please note that such things are also basically worthless. I agree that if you are going to get in to collecting items from this period, some serious study is required.
This whole grouping is kaka.
Bob

**Donald Abenheim** · 05-13-2006, 12:27 AM

Nehmen Sie sich in Acht...!

Originally posted by Bob Hritz

I hope you have a mess plate tucked in your trousers when dealing with whoever is trying to stick it in your a$$, if that is what is really happening.

I have a hard time believing any of this 'vet' story tripe. Better luck next time, with the trash you have posted.

Bob Hritz

In my limited experience, authentic black SS uniforms seldom come to market, and, if they do, generally in venues known for excellent material and something other than bargain prices. Colleagues Hritz and Coleman have excellent collections and great powers of discernment in especially this kind of material. While such advice may be superfluous, the purchase of this kind of material (black fetid woolens...) requires expert advice and some years of experience, unless one wants to fall victim to a confidence scheme or a Hochstapler.

**drew Allman** · 05-13-2006, 01:07 AM

.

Originally posted by Bob Hritz

I hope you have a mess plate tucked in your trousers when dealing with whoever is trying to stick it in your a$$, if that is what is really happening.

I have a hard time believing any of this 'vet' story tripe. Better luck next time, with the trash you have posted.

Bob Hritz

I have been hosed by a vet before. I bought 2 mint lugers for a hell of a price then I foolishly paid 500 dollars for what I now know what is a completely fake visor cover. The crooks are out there, questioning my integrity is rather petty. Whats the age old phrase? Buy the item not the story? I take pictures of things Iam not sure of and post them on here, things I have documentation of, needless to say go into my collection. When Im not sure it comes here before I buy. Im using my 25 dollar membership for all its worth.
Thanks

**wh014d4394** · 05-13-2006, 03:22 AM

hi guys so is some one telling me an 80 year old

plus vet are conman as sold this as a genuine bring back?

**bwanek1** · 05-13-2006, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Citadelcadet

I have been hosed by a vet before. I bought 2 mint lugers for a hell of a price then I foolishly paid 500 dollars for what I now know what is a completely fake visor cover. The crooks are out there, questioning my integrity is rather petty. Whats the age old phrase? Buy the item not the story? I take pictures of things Iam not sure of and post them on here, things I have documentation of, needless to say go into my collection. When Im not sure it comes here before I buy. Im using my 25 dollar membership for all its worth.
Thanks

With all due respect, you are not using your membership for all it's worth if you bought this POS before posting the pictures as you indicated ("I recently have acquired this SS uniform, here are 40 pictures...").

You indicate that you have been "hosed by a vet before," but yet you were not cautious with this "vet." You repeat the sound advice to "buy the item not the story," but you have at least twice been convinced that pure crap was authentic because the seller claimed to be a vet and because there was 'period' crap in pockets as evidence of originality ("The ONLY thing I am wary of is the belt buckle itself"). We have seen some of the other obvious fakes you have bought or considered buying in the past, like the "Standartenfuehrer mess dress," which was no such thing. If you truly were using your membership for all it's worth, you would not continue to buy high dollar items about which you clearly know very little without consulting this forum first. Moreover, you would follow the advice many of us have given you repeatedly, but which you have ignored, to start slowly with simpler, less expensive items, focus on a particular area, buy the books, and learn what you are collecting before buying. Unfortunately, it seems that you suffer from the same impatience that often characterizes your young generation; you want to "have it now" without investing the time and effort necessary to get/earn it.

**drew Allman** · 05-13-2006, 02:45 PM

I have books, I compare the uniforms as best as possible to the pictures, I place downpaymets or buy things with a return policy. I can see obvious fakes, yet uniforms that have proper cuts, aged appearances, thick buttons with maker names or rzm stamps, rzm patches all over, weighty material, my first assumption is its real. Noone has said anything wrong about the blouse itself. Actually comparing it to one of Bill Osheas SS uniforms, the silver piping is identical and shares the same warped like appearance. These are the things that stump me if they are fake. The sarcastic comments serve no purpose. I understand the logic in looking for low ticket items and becoming more knowledgeable about them. Yet, a reason of pursuing these bigger ticket items when they surface is they can bring a good amount of money so I can buy what I really have interest in; mint WWII firearms. I have no problem searching for stuff all over and posting it here. Just because Ive posted some fakes does not somehow mean Im now broke and I pay retail. I dont need to question the cheaper items such as swords and daggers because those are no brainers. All cloth SS is questionable and goes up here. Yes, at the time it is in my ownership because a 1 week inspection period is always negotiated.

**RUHL13** · 05-13-2006, 03:04 PM

Swords and daggers....no brainers?

**bwanek1** · 05-13-2006, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Citadelcadet

...a reason of pursuing these bigger ticket items when they surface is they can bring a good amount of money so I can buy what I really have interest in; mint WWII firearms.

If I understand correctly, you are saying that your real interest is not in collecting SS uniform items at all. You simply believe that with no real expertise, you can buy and sell SS uniforms as a means of turning a quick profit to finance your real collecting interest. Hmmm...how's that been working out for you so far?

Originally posted by Citadelcadet

I have books, I compare the uniforms as best as possible to the pictures...These are the things that stump me if they are fake.

By your own admission, even armed with the reference books, you can't identify the differences between these horrid fakes and originals. It would seem you have demonstrated that this is not a field in which a complete novice can have any expectation of identifying authentic items for purchase with the intent of resale as a profit generating investment.

Originally posted by Citadelcadet

I dont need to question the cheaper items such as swords and daggers because those are no brainers.

Oh, my, son. I see a lot of rude awakenings coming your way on another forum!

**phild** · 05-13-2006, 04:13 PM

"Yet, a reason of pursuing these bigger ticket items when they surface is they can bring a good amount of money so I can buy what I really have interest in; mint WWII firearms. I have no problem searching for stuff all over and posting it here. Just because Ive posted some fakes does not somehow mean Im now broke and I pay retail. I dont need to question the cheaper items such as swords and daggers because those are no brainers. All cloth SS is questionable and goes up here."

I have been collecting military firearms since 67/68. I own just about every reference published on German military firearms and about 150 references on other countries firearms. That said, I have more reservations and caution in purchasing mint or minty firearms than I do SS cloth. IMO there are no "no brainer" areas any more.

**NTZ** · 05-13-2006, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by Citadelcadet

Bill Osheas SS uniforms, the silver piping is identical and shares the same warped like appearance.

Wow, not even close! Please listen to everyone on the books. They are not the end-all but they will keep you out of some trouble. I know they are expensive but well worth it. Even collectors with years of experience have a well-stocked library. That $500 you spend on books might save you $5,000 one day. Also set up a database of pics from the forums. It is a great way too quickly reference known originals and it is free. Maybe with more knowledge you might come across a killer deal someday. I am still dreaming of that day, lol.

**Donald Abenheim** · 05-13-2006, 06:07 PM

summ cuique

Originally posted by NTZ

Wow, not even close! Please listen to everyone on the books. They are not the end-all but they will keep you out of some trouble. I know they are expensive but well worth it. Even collectors with years of experience have a well-stocked library. That $500 you spend on books might save you $5,000 one day. Also set up a database of pics from the forums. It is a great way too quickly reference known originals and it is free. Maybe with more knowledge you might come across a killer deal someday. I am still dreaming of that day, lol.

Just as MacArthur said, in effect, "..there is no substitute for victory," one can say there is no substitute for: a.) having the material in hand; as well as b.) knowing what it really is. And, by the way, the piping and various badges on black uniforms ca. 1938 or so are made of alu. wire, not silver. Silver content wire insignia were used earlier in the 1930s, but are extremely rare. The badges themselves were referred to as alu. as well in the price lists, &c at the time. As to the philosophical aspects of all this, see the motto of the Prussians: suum cuique, which is germane here. Each person must find their own way. My colleagues can be didactic on this score, but each person shall seek and find on their own. The disciplines of historical research, observation, empirical skills &c. are something less than the most celebrated pursuits in this post modern society of ours. Without putting too fine a point on it, I suppose there have to be some consequences for universal harmony from putting a plastic globe filled with awful bugs on a woman's head on television, and reveling in the consequences.

As cousin Nick suggests the imperative of a library is uppermost, but there are many figures with little interest in same. Bender lamented to me at length about just the phenomenon present in this set of postings. Those collectors who eschew knowledge as the basis of their effort only reflect greater trends in society as concern the denigration of education, the exaltation of too little time, the majesty of profit, pi pa po. It is easy to be scold. When I was a college student, though, all of this was well beyond my reach, even though I was wholly committed to this material. And, thirty five years ago, there was next to no authentic black material in the hands of veterans in my range of collecting here in no. California. It was already in collections, in fact. sapere aude. Black SS woolens are rare, widely faked, and the modern fakes are expert. Then, there is the dimension of the ex-Russian pieces, which have been re-badged. These are plentiful compared to the pieces that are freshly extracted from the hands of the 'greatest generation' or its heirs. The clever will look for the dissolution of old collections, as well as those cases where a newish collector acquired a piece at great expense, and now must make an addition to the house &c. and has to sell one of the treasures gotten from the high end dealers. Or, you are bold and foolish enough to pay the billet d'entrer with one of these self same dealers, and they inform you of their swag and then you pay through the nose. By the way, for those with an interest in this material as well as liberal piles of ducats and dubloons, one of our British colleagues has an authentic piece for sale at the moment, that is, a Verfuegungstruppe NCO Dienstrock of the era 1939.

**drew Allman** · 05-13-2006, 07:21 PM

Noone can tell me that 2,000 downpayment dropped on something that looks pretty good to take pictures and post here in attempts to see a much better value is a wrong move. No, I do not have everyones experience hence I petitions comments on here, yet I recognize things that could be valuable. So, while placing a refundable downpayment on something to see if its worth more is fine by me. In regards to daggers and swords, it can readily be seen if it has been taken apart or shined. SA daggers are low ticket items but for 150 dollars thats a good deal with a nice blade. SS daggers have been pieced together by Wittman but even a chained SS that is pieced together at 1200 bucks, is still a good deal. So if it has a maker mark, average blade, average grip and unmessed with nut (or appears to be) I see no problem. This is what I refer to with "no brainer". Though I have come across what appears to be alot of fake cloth Im sure I will come across something good soon.

**Donald Abenheim** · 05-13-2006, 07:43 PM

suum cuique und so weiter

Colleague Nick von NTZ once complained to me that there was a cartel of knowledge about this regalia, a clique in effect, unwelcoming of others in the ranks. In his words, a handful of angry old men guarded their collective woolen treasure, and did all within their power to exclude others from a meaningful encounter with the alu piping, the RZM tags pp. This criticism made an impression on me, to be sure. I do not envy a young person the struggle to make one's way with all of this. Our Citadel Oberjunker looks at material in the way he can manage it. It is too difficult to make the pilgrimage to the leading collections and then to study them at length. I am not sure that certain of the leading collectors would open their doors to a stranger, to be sure. So, if one has one's nose on the glass with eyes set inward , I suppose the above manner is one way to go about the task. The electronic pictures as well as the Schiffer picture books on black fetid woolens cannot provide the young seeker with all the wisdom and Fingerspitzengefuehl necessary for the target. As one who works in the field (...."pompous egg head," as my most eloquent fan here puts it...) the requirements of character, intellect, and endurance to master the past are pretty breath taking. We must remain committed to the idea that young people can do as we once did, or else our fetid woolens will become absurd and worthless.

**NTZ** · 05-13-2006, 07:53 PM

Citadelcadet, I am having a real hard time understanding were you are coming from. The fact the you left $2,000 with an obvious con man is pure insanity. What you are holding is worth about $200, I hope he gives you your money back. Also the fact that you don’t even see anything wrong with riding the backs of others here. Most of the members here have spent years upon years educating themselves through hard research and diligent studying of the materials they collect. Most of us have also paid our dues through financial mistakes buying bad items. Now here you are basically telling everyone that you don’t need to do your homework. You paid your $25 for a membership and everyone here will protect you from getting scammed. Hey that’s what were here for, to help those who can’t help themselves, lol. What a piss-poor attitude! The funniest thing was in your first post you demanded we give you details “not just it is bad”. Would you even understand those details? Well after this post you will be lucky to get help from anyone here. Good luck on your future hot buys.

Ha Ha, yes Donald I do remember that. I must say that I was wrong on that assessment. In fact you and many others like yourself have been extremely helpful on and off line. I guess I needed to have more patients and want to learn. I see the light now thanks to you and some others.

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