allach porcelain

[jmbh]

Hello all .
i wish to start a discussion about the porcelain allach , and to make profitable for
all your knowledge in this field ! Do you know if there are reproductions at this day ?
For my part , i hear that the number 6 (barengruppe) existed in copy , as well as
the vase "kuntstausstellung 1941" . Do you have other knowledge in this field ?
Thank you for your reply !
Jean-Marie

[Jarrid Marsh]

Hello all .
i wish to start a discussion about the porcelain allach , and to make profitable for
all your knowledge in this field ! Do you know if there are reproductions at this day ?
For my part , i hear that the number 6 (barengruppe) existed in copy , as well as
the vase "kuntstausstellung 1941" . Do you have other knowledge in this field ?
Thank you for your reply !
Jean-Marie

Well I have heard of reproductions, and have seen one plate to speak of, there is talk that a couple molds had survived for a couple pieces includeing one of the stags if I am not mistaken. I would think that even if a stag mold survived, you would have to be a stellar porcelain maker to utilize it.

I see attempt's now to take pieces that were never made by Allach and known by other manufacture with added runes, as well as attempts to remark them as Allach.

All in all, I have not seen a good Allach reproduction by any means, and to be honest, I have handled a lot of porcelain, recently I was in an antique shop and in a case was a stunning Germanic wizard as white as can be and high quality, and I had them pull it out and I got it in my hand and could tell before I flipped it over it was splendid, but not Allach, It was a Meissen piece, had it not been for a snapped finger I would have taken that home.

Something special about Allach, it has a look and feel like no other porcelain that I have encountered it is just very unique in many ways.

Have not seen a good attempt, nevermind a great one.

And if you get techinical, and talk about reverse molds and I guess new molds, I would imagine it would be extremely difficult and quite costly, and then you have to match the quality. Not an easy task in my opinion.

J

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's a postwar copy from an Allach mould.

[Jarrid Marsh]

Here's a postwar copy from an Allach mould.

Robin,

I am not seeing a pic, I assume it might have been too big, but would like to see that.

J

[jmbh]

hello Robin ,
Where is picture from postwar copy ?
( Thank you Jarrid for your reply ) .
i hope to have more reply from everybody !
Please gentlemans who collect allach-porcelan , take a part for this discussion !
Jean-Marie

[Jarrid Marsh]

hello Robin ,
Where is picture from postwar copy ?
( Thank you Jarrid for your reply ) .
i hope to have more reply from everybody !
Please gentlemans who collect allach-porcelan , take a part for this discussion !
Jean-Marie

No disrespect to Mr. Lumsden, but I do not believe there is a pic, unless of course it is an obvious copy, in which case it serves no purpose, as anyone who has handled these pieces would surely know.

Its too good to make a 600.00 piece, and the rumors of Chinese workers running them down an assembly line?. Im sorry but I just dont believe that at all as I really dont think it can be done, it would have to show. You can literally pick one of these pieces up and if you had one in your hand before? know exactly what your looking at, you can smell it, thats how good they really are!!.

Repairs? now that is what you should be looking at, forget the measurements, forget the catalogue, forget it all. Every piece is different, from one to the next, look at period photo's you can literally see height differences, look at the auction catalog's, they now list fractions of centimeters in their measurements, its all undocumented and it is all hand made.

How is it that a Frederick the Great equestrian piece, that should measure let's say 33 cm as I dont have the book in front of me, come out with measurements that can be upwards to an inch or better off?.

Ill tell ya why? Because the Germans allthough admired as god's ,they believe it or not?, made mistakes.

You show me a bogus Frederick, Curassiar, or any significant Allach piece that stands up to analysis and passes, and I will give you my sister, and I like her.

Show me something real good, fool me, its not worth a small dollar piece, and the copies are poor, real poor, the labor alone to make a simple piece I dont care if its a dollar a day, cannot substantiate the cost and even if it could it would not in my humble opinion get by me, and if it did? I will buy it anyway.

It is too good, Now pretend im from Missouri and show me.

[Skipper Greenwade]

I have never seen a convincing reproduction fo an Allach piece. The quality of that stuff was just off the charts! The one piece I believe to have been faked the most is the Jul-Leuchter. It was the only item produced by the firm that was not porcelain. It was not a particularly good-looking thing - more of a terra-cotta material - and looked for all the world like something made in a third grade art class. Never bothered even trying to tell real from fake on these.

Best,
Skip

[jmbh]

Thank you for your reply. Here my analysis: To date, there are no problems concerning the autenticite parts proposed on the market. (what is rare for the militaria). After the war, moulds have summers recovered by other manufacturers; on these parts, there is always the name of the artist but the logo is different, it is almost impossible to change this logo because of the glaze. There can be small differences of size and completion. if a mould is taken and that one factories 100 parts, the first will be very clear and the less precise last because of the clogging of the mould ! the color can be slightly different following proportioning from the matter. A moulding of an original part is difficult because the thickness of the glaze which would return the model obtained less precise, which implies to work over again this model. I did not see yet copies which pretent with confusion! For "julleuchter", We know that: 5 years of manufacture (1936/37/38/39/43) total: approximately 177.000 parts. approximately 21 cm; 700gr. several possible colors (use of slightly different ground in 5 years). the part is moulded then finished manually. Only model original is on the photograph of the catalogue allach 1938/39. one can see on this photograph which the cavities of the disc are dissimilar (idem on the photograph with the workshop or the girls work). All the "points" made on the lathe are Nets and ordered well! but it is a model for one year! is there somebody who have on original julleucter with garanties of origin ??? ( not dealer/garanties ).An original witch award-paper !
Best regards .
Jean-Marie

[Jarrid Marsh]

Jean Marie,

I went through all photos and web surf's last night and pulled up some old posts as well, and I think I understand where Mr. Lumsden was going with this pic, and it would have been another maker.

This is speculative at best as to other makers having original Allach mold's, I suppose its possible, but have no knowledge or reference to show this, it would also require remarking a finished piece, easier said than done for one thing, secondly although the piece's look identical in form, the quality of a Rosenthal or Eschenbach piece which is generally where you see them, is easily discernable especially on the colored pieces.

A recent Ebay auction had a Diana on Horseback by Eschenbach and it was real nice and a Karner piece, but definitely not the Allach mold, she was not carrying a sword and I was not sure if it was lost or broken, size was close, but right hand was placed flat over the rear hind of the horse, leading me to believe she did not have the sword and it was just clearly not an Allach mold.

So why use or re-use an Allach mold for a simple piece as these dogs and not take the difficult molds that would require much time to reproduce, and obviously the skill to do it?. Some of the most commonly produced pieces are the ones found by other makers and had the most production by Allach, so to re-use a mold that produced many pieces as opposed to few may make sense for production purposes as per popularity, but as an artist?

Also, most of the piece's that have measurement discrepencies are the complicated piece's, most dog and animal pieces are spot on, but not in all case's. So how did they measure them? and how many molds did they utilize for a specific piece?.

I have called one guy's hand on a bogus plate, and he produced it and it was bogus and a real attempt, but also real poor, that is the only example I know of other than the Juhlectors which are flooded, I cant even tell and have 3 different answers to tell the difference.

The plates can vary in size up to .5 centimeters, Olivers measurements conflict with catalog measurements and period publication measurements conflict with both as well.

The repairs and touch up's are another issue, I grabbed a squirrel in Louisville and there was something wrong and took me a few minutes, the base was wetsanded around the rim, not proper at all, with some better light I could see it was a crack, but it ran right up the side and under the glaze and you really could not see it unless you really looked, forget a blacklight, down go's the squirrel, of course the crack went with the grain of the wetsand.

Now take a rare piece, you cant even get a picture of it, nevermind another piece to compare it to, so what do you do?. One of the best test's is risky as if your wrong or not sure you can break the piece with ease.

I understand that at a recent auction a Allach Hitler bust was pulled do to questions of originality, I dont know if this is true, but this is a "K" prefix piece, its earthenware, I would imagine it would be easier to reproduce than a porcelain specimen, but hell ive never even seen one.

So I have a RAD man, not inexpensive but wont touch a juhllector, not yet anyway.

Anyway, these piece's are very different and a real pain in the butt as there is no reference, but I am not buying into a bunch of Chinamen standing on a production line pumping out daschunds, never mind these other pieces as I dont think it could be done, and if attempted they would be picked right off.

You may see pieces more now, as there is an awareness of Allach that has not been there before, I know as im paying for these pieces and their not cheap.

Best,

J

[web105jk]

Allach

This is an interesting thread on Allach porcelains. Although most of the discussions center around the Allach figures and vases, they also produced some very fine china. As Jarrid said, when you handle one of these you feel the high quality. I have several pieces from with the AH logo. Here's the soup bowl & saucer.
Herm

[web105jk]

Allach

Allach

[web105jk]

Allach

Ah

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's the picture I posted earlier. It is a well-known Allach dog model. But this particular one was made after the war.

[Robin Lumsden]

Here is the mark on the bottom of that dog. It is the mark of the Sauermann firm, a professional porcelain manufacturer which bought some of the Allach animal moulds at the end of the war. They marked their pieces 'Sauermann' and did not attempt to deceive anyone. It was just a commercial venture so far as they were concerned - ready made moulds at a cheap price.

All I was saying is that some Allach moulds did survive the war to be used again.

If it happened with the animals, it could happen with the other figures.

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's a fake Julleuchter. These were made in the hundreds during the 1970s and openly sold in the Waffen-SS vets' magazine 'Der Freiwillige'.