Very rare "Himmler albums"

[RD Rygaard]

Sorry to be a tease guys but tomorrow is my 1st day back to work after a nice LONG week off Anyway due to the success of the last photo post Ive decided to show a "teaser" of 3 albums I have with approx 250 unpublished photos of Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler ranging from early (dare I say 34/35) to 1944 which I hope you will enjoy.Due to the spirited discussions of my prior posts Im hoping ( Im quite positive) thgat these new posts will be of great intrest to both Mr Abenheim & Mr Troncar. I should be able to post more say weds night? Now its off to lala land........ Regards Richard

PS: Guys I SINCERELY enjoy the comments & info that they contain. Please feel free to keep these threads alive & full of info! If for some reason I forget to post by weds a nice PM will get the job done......

[all1knew]

Wolff

Hello,

I just love that shot of Himmler and Wolff, thank you for posting.

William Kramer

[Johann Anton]

I wonder what area this album is from. The SA kepi appears to be a lighter color. Looking forward to more!

[RD Rygaard]

Hello,

I just love that shot of Himmler and Wolff, thank you for posting.

William Kramer

keep an eye out lots of Wolf/Himmler shots coming mid week......

[Donald Abenheim]

Vor dem Roehm Putsch

My wild a** guess is said image is sometime in 1934, perhaps the spring or summer, before these men did good ole' Roehm and Co in. That is, before 30 June 1934. For a time in 1934 Himmler and Wolff also wore odd white collar patches, I think, before the rank badge we know was introduced later in 1934. The volume of Himmler Geheimreden published in 1973 or 1974 in Germany has an excellent collection of dated and chronological photos of same. It includes him with these Obergruppenfuehrer badges and with these funny later white badges. Thanks as ever for the impressive images. I wish I could look under all the caps to see the markings, makers, &c. One with access to the rank lists in their # could also date these people and surely others can identify these Allgem. SS leaders. Does Dietrich have an LAH cuff title here, as well? That would be another means to date the picture, too, I guess. Vielen Dank! Postscriptum, I guess one would lean to 1934 as well because one cohort of SS men is in the brown shirt and kepi and the other under review has the schwarzen Dienstrock. Of note further is the white Paspel on the collar patches, which was then phased out later in the year with the alu and black species of same.That adults can keep such arcane details in mind seventy odd years later while the 21st century is off to an inauspicious start. My more learned colleagues will add more details I have obviously overlooked. When did the dagger become an object of general wear among senior SS ranks? Also, do Himmler and Wolff have the SS style Totenkopf on their cap vs.the Danzigertotenkopf of the others? This would also date the image, but this point confuses me. Maybe my eyesight is bad. I thought the SS style (full jawed badge) was introduced later in 1934 than the summer. So many half informed guesses....sapere aude.

[RD Rygaard]

My wild a** guess is said image is sometime in 1934, perhaps the spring or summer, before these men did good ole' Roehm and Co in. That is, before 30 August 1934. For a time in 1934 Himmler and Wolff also wore odd white collar patches, I think, before the rank badge we know was introduced later in 1934. The volume of Himmler Geheimreden published in 1973 or 1974 in Germany has an excellent collection of dated and chronological photos of same. It includes him with these Obergruppenfuehrer badges and with these funny later white badges. Thanks as ever for the impressive images. I wish I could look under all the caps to see the markings, makers, &c. One with access to the rank lists in their # could also date these people and surely others can identify these Allgem. SS leaders. Does Dietrich have an LAH cuff title here, as well? That would be another means to date the picture, too, I guess. Vielen Dank!

Yes Don in the following images you'll see such close up of insignia it will make your head spin!!!!! These photos are quite large(8x10) so I have to reduce the res on them. Now what year did the SS switch to the full jaw tk? Most of the pics show the full jaw w/ early cap adler...no sight of the later version but some have jawless TK & early adler....until weds night! Rich

[Donald Abenheim]

Yes Don in the following images you'll see such close up of insignia it will make your head spin!!!!! These photos are quite large(8x10) so I have to reduce the res on them. Now what year did the SS switch to the full jaw tk? Most of the pics show the full jaw w/ early cap adler...no sight of the later version but some have jawless TK & early adler....until weds night! Rich

Based on Mollo, I had thought that the full jawed TK came at the end of 1934. But what do I know? The Obergruppenfuehrer badge on Himmler and the cap badge confuse me, but I know my colleagues will set me straight. Thanks dear colleague for the wonderful images. I think I may have mis-stated the date, though.

[derek]

Richard,
Thanks again for posting your excellent early images. It will be interesting to date this photo, I'm hoping lots of insignia facts will pop up along the way. To help clarify the location can you post a scan of the cufftitle of the SS man following behind and just to the right of Himmler.
RZM documents refer to the full jawed skull in October of 1934 but it shows up in photographs much earlier than that.
Himmler was definitely wearing his final pattern RFSS tabs by November of 1934 so the shot is earlier than that.
I'm not so sure that Himmler wore the white tabs after The Night of the Long Knives (June 30th, not August.) as the only dated photo I have of him wearing these was taken in December 1933.
Anyway, fascinating stuff and thanks again,
Derek

[Donald Abenheim]

Richard,
Thanks again for posting your excellent early images. It will be interesting to date this photo, I'm hoping lots of insignia facts will pop up along the way. To help clarify the location can you post a scan of the cufftitle of the SS man following behind and just to the right of Himmler.
RZM documents refer to the full jawed skull in October of 1934 but it shows up in photographs much earlier than that.
Himmler was definitely wearing his final pattern RFSS tabs by November of 1934 so the shot is earlier than that.
I'm not so sure that Himmler wore the white tabs after The Night of the Long Knives (June 30th, not August.) as the only dated photo I have of him wearing these was taken in December 1933.
Anyway, fascinating stuff and thanks again,


Derek

Dear Colleague, thanks for these wonderful details. Do you have a date of the earliest appearance of the SS style of TK in 1934? The images of the white tabs are in the Smith/Peterson edition of Himmler's speeches published in 1973/4. The assertion about the white patches is in the 1991 addendum to Mollo's vol. I. Whoops about August 1934... I fixed that above. Hindenburg died in August, of course. Time is getting the better of me... vielen Dank!

[derek]

Dear Mr. Abenheim,
I have a photo of Himmler with von Gottberg inspecting the newly formed PB detachment Wurttemburg. All the senior officers are wearing the full jawed skull. Von Gottberg wears the insignia of an SS-Sturmbannfuehrer. Conveniently for us he only held this rank from January to March 1934, so the second pattern skull was obviously in fairly wide distribution much earlier than the literature would suggest.
Sincerely,
Derek

[Donald Abenheim]

Na, bitte!

Dear Mr. Abenheim,
I have a photo of Himmler with von Gottberg inspecting the newly formed PB detachment Wurttemburg. All the senior officers are wearing the full jawed skull. Von Gottberg wears the insignia of an SS-Sturmbannfuehrer. Conveniently for us he only held this rank from January to March 1934, so the second pattern skull was obviously in fairly wide distribution much earlier than the literature would suggest.
Sincerely,
Derek

Dear Colleague, thanks so much for this data---very interesting and important empirical knowledge for us all. warm regards, DA Sapere aude!

[derek]

Back to the matter at hand, from what I can see Wolff holds the rank of SS-Standartenfuehrer in Richard's picture. He was promoted to this rank on 20.4.34 and became an SS-Oberfuehrer on 4.7.34, so the picture dates from April to July 1934.

Derek

[RD Rygaard]

Richard,
Thanks again for posting your excellent early images. It will be interesting to date this photo, I'm hoping lots of insignia facts will pop up along the way. To help clarify the location can you post a scan of the cufftitle of the SS man following behind and just to the right of Himmler.
RZM documents refer to the full jawed skull in October of 1934 but it shows up in photographs much earlier than that.
Himmler was definitely wearing his final pattern RFSS tabs by November of 1934 so the shot is earlier than that.
I'm not so sure that Himmler wore the white tabs after The Night of the Long Knives (June 30th, not August.) as the only dated photo I have of him wearing these was taken in December 1933.
Anyway, fascinating stuff and thanks again,
Derek

Derek:

Sorry but try as I might enlarging the pic just makes a blur However,Here's a scan of several of the titles & I believe the one in question sports roman numerals either a VII or VIII?

[RD Rygaard]

#1 = "VII" or "VIII" ?

#2= SS (runes) Hauptamt

#3= "RFSS" script

[RD Rygaard]

detail of "OST" tab