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**RoyA** · 08-08-2005, 07:08 PM

I can't comment on the tresse, but the tunic itself is fine

**pete** · 08-09-2005, 12:48 AM

Im looking at Mike Beavers book vol 2 uniforms of the waffen ss concerning the m43 tunic and on page 402 and 403 it lists two pictures courtesy of C. Siler showing an SS Unterscharfuhrers 2 hole M43 Tunic. The caption reads:

" Upper blouse details reveal the collar tresse as luftwaffe pattern. Bullion ss runes are quite typical of NCO ranks while the eagle is an enlisted rank embroidered pattern"

Comments?

Pete

AJ · 08-09-2005, 03:20 AM

Looks like another almost "mint" uniform from Sweden.

One must admire von Lucas ability to keep finding those rare minty uniforms.
He sure must have some very very good conections

**TONY Q.W.** · 08-09-2005, 06:15 AM

To be objective, everything looks original from pics ( tunic and insignia ). The question is, when insigina were applyed. Only hands on examination could answer that.

**Gene** · 08-09-2005, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by AJ

Looks like another almost "mint" uniform from Sweden.

One must admire von Lucas ability to keep finding those rare minty uniforms.
He sure must have some very very good conections

DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!

**Bobwirtz** · 08-09-2005, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by pete

Im looking at Mike Beavers book vol 2 uniforms of the waffen ss concerning the m43 tunic and on page 402 and 403 it lists two pictures courtesy of C. Siler showing an SS Unterscharfuhrers 2 hole M43 Tunic. The caption reads:

" Upper blouse details reveal the collar tresse as luftwaffe pattern. Bullion ss runes are quite typical of NCO ranks while the eagle is an enlisted rank embroidered pattern"

Comments?

Pete

Not everything was done according to regulations, particularly in the field and as the war got into the later stages with the transportation system bombed out of existance, front line troops used what they could find. Also, professional NCOs had a tendency to purchase some parts of their uniforms, putting on officer-quality runic collar tabs without the piping, etc. As for the sleeve eagle, these were generally factory applied and were rarely replaced, even by officers. How many officer panzer and assault gun jackets have you encountered with silver bullion sleeve eagles? These are very rare instances, as officers usually left the factory applied embroidered or bevo insignia. Going out and spending money on silver bullion sleeve eagles and having them applied to a jacket that got a lot of rubbing while entering or leaving through a small hatch didn't make sense because they got tore up... same thing with an infantry officer wearing a nice tailor-made tunic in the mud, etc.

Anyway, that's my opinion on this and hopefully its an educated opinion.

**johannes post** · 08-09-2005, 10:37 AM

totaly agree with you

i have had in my collection several 100 % originel waffen ss jackets
one has had even a yellow chevron on the left arm (i don't know how you call this in english )it was a m44 jacket.
and look for prove late war pictures from soldiers in the field there insignes didn't even follow the textbook rules.
i personnely think that because so many fackes the only originel these days is a 100 % textbook and nothing else and that isn't right.
this is just my opinion (sorry for the picture this one is the first i had found on my pc )

best regards johan

Originally posted by Bobwirtz

Not everything was done according to regulations, particularly in the field and as the war got into the later stages with the transportation system bombed out of existance, front line troops used what they could find. Also, professional NCOs had a tendency to purchase some parts of their uniforms, putting on officer-quality runic collar tabs without the piping, etc. As for the sleeve eagle, these were generally factory applied and were rarely replaced, even by officers. How many officer panzer and assault gun jackets have you encountered with silver bullion sleeve eagles? These are very rare instances, as officers usually left the factory applied embroidered or bevo insignia. Going out and spending money on silver bullion sleeve eagles and having them applied to a jacket that got a lot of rubbing while entering or leaving through a small hatch didn't make sense because they got tore up... same thing with an infantry officer wearing a nice tailor-made tunic in the mud, etc.

Anyway, that's my opinion on this and hopefully its an educated opinion.

**pete** · 08-09-2005, 11:04 AM

No diffrent hen a modern day soldier for that matter in some areas....

I was a combat engineer Section member and a Section member/driver for a long time, then the boss...I got so sick of wrecking my uniforms in the field and around an armoured vehicle which is possible any way you turn and then having to spend hours washing it to get stains out, and avoid duty and trouble...

Only makes sense to save your good ones for garrison etc...

Pete

**Bobwirtz** · 08-09-2005, 12:03 PM

I know a collector that has two Waffen-SS assault gun jackets. The officer jacket has the embroidered sleeve eagle and an RZM-style cuffband. The NCO assault gun jacket has a silver bullion runic collar tab without piping, ARMY panzer shoulder straps that are SEWN in, missing the sleeve eagle so there's no telling what was there (but probably enlisted), and a beautiful aluminum flat wire DAS REICH cuffband with the silver-gray silk thread borders. He has a tailor-made tunic with all officer quality collar tabs but an embroidered enlisted sleeve eagle. Another officer tunic (which is SS enlisted with the belt hook holes) with all officer insignia except the runic collar tab which is enlisted embroidered but piped in silver twist cord... and still another officer tunic --- tailor made to include all SS-RZM marked buttons, but an enlisted embroidered runic collar tab with both collar tabs being piped in larger (probably Luftwaffe-related) silver twist cord piping. So go figure! Remember that officers received money to buy their uniforms and had great flexibility when doing so. Many who found themselves crawling through mud, etc. acquired enlisted tunics and trousers and had them tailored with officer insignia (usually just the collar tabs and shoulder boards but sometimes the addition of a dark-green wool collar). Other officers bought their uniforms at Kleidekasses, which were tailor made but not of the finest quality - not the quality of a regular tailor who owned his own shop and had his own label.

Where I draw the line is on 'field-made' stuff like camouflaged field caps and jackets, etc. That is an area that I would stick closely with the factory-manufactured stuff.

Once again, these are just my thoughts after much study but there are always regulations and exceptions.

**Panzer** · 08-09-2005, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by AJ

Looks like another almost "mint" uniform from Sweden.

One must admire von Lucas ability to keep finding those rare minty uniforms.
He sure must have some very very good conections

I am just wondering if you and several others here are blind? Serious question. Do you have a white cane? I would not want to insult you! How could you say this is a "mint" uniform? Can you not see the nap wear? minor stains on the outside and obvious discolouration inside? Nicely presented by being pressed and steamed maybe.....but mint? That's a joke!

Again it's the unsual "it doesn't look like the one in the book". So very 'nearsighted'. As Bob said....there are ALWAYS exceptions to the regulations, always odd things one can find. It pays to keep a very open mind!

My 10 cents worth! Cheers, Wade K.

**TonyM** · 08-10-2005, 02:03 AM

I have seen this tunic while I was at Peter`s office and as Wade rightly points out it is not mint. there is much wear to it, stains , nap is well worn, small moth holes etc. How can this tunic be described as mint??

Look at some of the other well known dealer sites to see MINT SS TUNICS where you think they had just come out of the factory.

**johannes post** · 08-10-2005, 02:58 AM

I am just wondering if you and several others here are blind? what is that for reaction

we are here discussing a piece and what is this for stupid reaction so this is what they mean that the forum goes back in manners .aj said looks like a almost "mint" that means ,not mint.

my reaction johan

**Panzer** · 08-10-2005, 03:48 AM

No Johannes....it is a simple fact.....If this is a discussion then how is it that something as basic as condition can be missrepresented? It is plain to see to anyone with something like a modern computer screen that this is a used and worn tunic. It is NOT MINT....so before we start picking it thread by thread....lets start by getting the basics right! Never mind that all these opinions are based on whatever can be seen on a flat screen....no in person. Nobody ever concedes that....there is no finite judgement of a piece until it is IN YOU HANDS.......

You are just splitting hairs.......the motive of the comment was clear...and WRONG! I make no apology. Get your facts straight.
Wade K.

**Panzer** · 08-10-2005, 04:31 AM

I thought I would also add that I have nothing against you personally......I just get angry and tired with these sorts of threads that acheive nothing and just bring out the same cast of malcontents....with their distorted facts to have a kick. Pete is happy he has a new tunic......it is not like this is some converted Bundesgrenschutze uniform or something.....why can't a few people say 'well done" Nice looking item. Always so many people on a downer. I think many are just jealous.

So my apologies if I seemed like I was attacking you personally. It was not my intention.
Cheers, Wade K.

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