Hi. The owner of these collar patches is confident that they are original, possibly Austrian made as they are mounted on an Austrian made uniform. Certainly they display proper age tarnish. What are the forums thoughts?
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More photos -
Tabs
Not even close to being original.Comment
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Hi Marflower,
Reproductions, 100%. Austrian made bullion is no excuse, if it were true.
Here's an example of an original - compare and contrast.
Best regards,
JasonComment
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Jason is correct. The first posted tabs are on the wrong material and wrong bullion tyoes are used. They are reproductions.
Bob HritzIn the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.
Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.Comment
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Hi. Thanks for the answers. Are you saying that all his collar boards are of the same construction, irrespective of from which of his uniforms? What about later in the war? When I look at the uniform, they are on, it shows evidence of prolonged wear and sweating. Also, assuming say the boards were for the rank of general, would the construction look original?
Thanks and regards
JohnComment
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Hi John -
There are literally dozens of methods to age reproduction insignia. The construction of the tabs you have posted does not conform with the way tabs were constructed during the war in terms of the backing and bullion material - I am not saying just Dicke Hermann's tabs, but tabs in general.
Can you post pics of the rest of the tunic?
DonComment
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John,
Good questions. I think it's unreasonable to expect to see uniform construction, technique, style, etc. in anything that's hand-done. If you look at a typical unterlage from, say, a Luftwaffe breast eagle, and then review the myriad variations seen in breast eagles, it's mind-boggling. But this just goes to show you how the individual craftsman injects his or her own technique, style, experience, etc., into his/her work. Add the fact that the German war machine spanned over a decade, across multiple fronts, among millions of soldiers, and among multiple countries, and variations abound. Many collectors do expect uniformity, and this is where they can trip themselves up, or label period pieces as bad which deviate from the most-often seen/surviving example.
That said, I think the best way to judge bullion is by seeing period examples. Most standard Luftwaffe officer tabs for a lowly Leutnant are far superior to these mislabeled Goring tabs. The more you see, the easier it is to tell, regardless of the type of bullion and the branch who would have worn it.
Quality did often decline at the end of the war, but not for hand-made, private-tailored examples by the craftsman who put out quality work. In other words, those who put out quality work in 1935 did the same in 1945. If we see fewer surviving examples of later-war quality, it is more likely due to the fact that quality materials were in dire need later in the war, meaning they would likely have been more expensive to source, and thus buy.
The aging is tricky...the war's been over for 70 years now, so anything could be naturally aged since then. To Don's point, there are many artificial aging methods that people use which are intended to fool buyers. So in this case, the aging you see means little.
If you're just looking at buying the tabs, they are 100% reproductions - no doubt at all. If you are looking at buying the uniform, you're welcome to post here for feedback and we'll help you out all we can.
I hope that helps.
Best regards,
JasonComment
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Hi Don & Jason
The owner had taken the collar tabs off the uniform, because they had been badly sewn on by the previous owner ( a museum in Switzerland), to check the backs of the collar patches and, finally, see what shadow appeared on the collar. As the collars were off, he let me take some pictures, which I posted here.
I understand the argument of the variation on handmade embroidered items, as well as the difference in quality, with the other example shown. The ageing of gold bullion is harder to achieve though, as chemicals will tarnish uniformingly. In this case, if you gently lift the bullion, you find the gold is fresh and bright. The same applies to the bullion on the shoulder boards.
I will ask the owner if he will allow me to show more photos. He assumed when he bought it that it was a good copy, but cannot understand the level of genuine wear (not artificially distressed) on all the components. The tailor Tiller is a known supplier of quality uniforms and hats, who ceased trading after WW2. Furthermore the suit appears to have significant sweat staining to the liner, attacking it around the armpits. Other details are the stress marks to the button holes, that in period photos, are shown to take the brunt of his girth. These are shown as creased areas in photos and affect the 3 and 4 button, starting from the collar. Finally, the left side pocketson both the jacket and trousers are much more worn than the right hand side. Initially that would make you think that he was left handed. When you look at period photos, you see that Göring had a habit of keeping his left hand in his pocket.
All this, I admit, doesn't in any way prove that the tunic is correct, but it does raise questions as to how it got into this condition. As a copy, it seems to be an awful lot of effort. He hasn't offered it to me, just allowed me to picture it.
I will go and try and get you the pictures to show what I mean.
Kind regards
JohnComment
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John,
Reviewing all that wear and use is a good thing to do. And yes, it does seem like it would be a lot of effort to go through. But that depends on the market value of the item. An original Goring tunic would fetch hundreds of thousands, potentially, so scores would go through any and all hoops to make such an amount.
Regarding the tabs, they could have been made long ago and are showing an age of their own. More than enough time has gone by for that to occur.
Tiller? Yes, a legitimate period Austrian tailor.
Who knows...the uniform could be a repro on any gradation of quality, or it could be an original that a museum had hastily sewn repro tabs on because the original insignia had been stripped. Nobody can really comment with any veracity without a score of high resolution photos, and even then an in-hand is a must for a final decision.
Here's another question...if a museum had it and felt it was original, how did the item change hands to the current owner? It if had been vetted and accepted as an original along the way, you'd see a trail. The likelihood any any deal to be had for a Goring uniform, and/or finding something that the previous owner didn't realize the value of, is fractional. I would be highly skeptical, as well.
Best,
JasonComment
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Anyone can view this £85,000 mess........Tiller.....This tunic is part of that dumb Göring combo that's sat in that awful Plymouth 'antiques' emporium for years........ 'Parade Antiques'Last edited by hochtief; 04-01-2015, 04:34 PM.Comment
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A fellow member sent me the link - gotta love the Soul Train Lampassen on the trousers...
http://www.paradeantiques.co.uk/mili...ervice-uniform
DonComment
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Thanks for the link...now we know we are dealing with as opposed to suspecting. I've seen this before and had forgotten about it. Nothing on that ensemble is good.
The write-up is priceless.
J-Comment
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LOL:
"Originally bought as a copy, it came with a peaked cap that was clearly made up to fit the suit. On receiving it we began to have suspicions that the jacket, trousers and braces were original. It is not unheard of for museums not to be aware of what they have, or for that matter, larger auction houses to dismiss items that are sold with obvious fakes."Comment
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Hi, nobody even going to mention the non symmetrical stubby baton/devices on the shoulder boards and bad stitching holding the shoulder board's onto the tunic, etc etc
Regards SKLast edited by Silberkreuz; 04-06-2015, 03:09 PM.Comment
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