German 30mm aircraft cannon round....I think

[blinky]

Can anyone tell me more about this? The projectile is marked ko(?)66/45 and has a large black M printed on opposite sides. The headstamp is 165 eeo. I assume it's an aircraft round but that's about it. Any information would be greatly appreciated!

Eric

[Matt L]

Hi Eric,

Yup- that's a 3cm MK108 round for sure- I have one of this type myself. I'm told a large number of them were found in an alpine lake about 10 or 12 years ago hence the brown color on the shell. It's an odd type that I've never seen any proper documentation for and it's not either of the two normally seen HE shell types. European German ordnance experts have classified them as training rounds. A number of 2cm MG151/20E rounds were also found, sharing the same brown-colored finish and complete ink markings although they have a mixture of plain steel noses and actual ZZ1505 fuzes. The 2cm ammunition was made by the same factory as the 3cm- they're all marked 'tko' with a '45' date.

They do indeed seem to have been intended to be fired- the cases did contain propellent when found- but one of the reasons I've been given for them being classified as training rounds is that some projectiles were found to contain inert materials like sand, and iron filings (although if there's a little bit of powdered aluminum in there, that's thermite).

Now interestingly enough, I recently saw photographs of parts recovered from a late-war Bf109 crash site, including the ammunition for the 3cm MK108- and some of the rounds appeared to have a very small fuze such as these rounds appear to have taken- the normal-type fuzes are rather larger. Unfortunately, the pictures aren't close-ups, and I cannot get any more as the people who actually dug up the parts for the guy who found the crash (and took the pictures) stole the lot.

Here's a shot of my regular rounds with this 'training' round beside them:



You can see that the shell of the 'training round' is the same overall length as the others, but it tapers fairly drastically and would take a very small fuze- unfortunately, as I said, I've never found any documentation showing this fuze or indeed the shell itself.

So for the moment, unfortunately, these rounds are a bit of a mystery.

Matt

[blinky]

Thanks Matt, that's more than I knew before! Your shell is the twin of mine. It doesn't appear that the nose cap on it has ever been removed. Mine still has the primer intact and at the bottom you can still see a bit of propellant stuck to the sides of the case.
Strange shell.

Eric

[Zünder]

The shell is a 3 cm Minengeschoss Üb. for 3 cm MK108.
It has a dummy fuze and is filled with concrete.

They were found in a pond on an former luftwaffe airbase in the N.E. of Holland, at least that's what the guy who found them told me.

If it would have been a HE version "3 cm Spgr. m. Zerl", it would have been fitted with a AZ 1504 Pd fuze.

[blinky]

And thank you very much too Zunder!

Eric

[Matt L]

Ah, yes, okay, I've just discovered the problem: the document I have is incomplete- it doesn't even include the ZZ1589A-fuzed tracer round I have, which is a very standard type. The exercise rounds it does show have quite gently tapering projectiles- nothing like these ones Eric and I have. I'd mistaken them to be the exercise version of the the combat round it does show- with an AZ1504 fuze- to be the type with the ZZ1589A, which isn't the case obviously (the latter is rather larger). Well I'm really glad that's cleared-up!

It always really confused me that exercise rounds would be marked like combat rounds- but then it's really about the color of the rounds and that was difficult to discern since they'd been so badly discolored. Just now though, looking at one of the 2cm MG151/20E rounds I have from this 'deposit', I see that it really does look like it could have been gray originally- the code-color for exercise ammunition.

The filling was also always a confusing element- none of my rounds contain concrete, but what they do have in them isn't readily identifiable (without a chemistry lab anyway). The 3cm shell has remnants of a yellowish crystalline material on the walls- having a color much like sulfur- and the 2cm rounds have powdered iron in them. I also couldn't reconcile why some of the 2cm rounds had dummy fuzes and some had real fuzes- why would real fuzes be on exercise ammunition that lacked an explosive charge? All this did make me question the identification of this ammunition as excercise, but now I see that it's quite plausible.

Matt

[Zünder]

Matt, when it comes to german ammunition, especially dummy's, there seems to be no logic.

Yes, dummies with a normal fuze have been found, but dummie rounds, with dummy fuzes have also been found filled with TNT.
With larger calibers it gets even more confuzing: dummies filled with concrete, filled with tar, filled with TNT, filled with TNT and a layer of tar on top, even with no filling at all.
I've seen dummies on a shooting range, that were empty, had a steel noseplate, but also had a element for the initial charge screwed in, which makes no sense at all.

There are so many variations, that you can really wonder about the effectiveness of german ammo production.

It also means that when it looks like a dummy, and has all the right markings, you still can never be sure it is indeed inert.
Another good reason to stay away from dug up ammo.

[Matt L]

Yes, I'm discovering that It's so strange though- they have such intricate marking systems that one would think they'd be pretty strict about things- especially exercise vs. combat ammunition considering how dangerous the latter can be! Then again, a war is probably a very complex thing to run- 'make do' was probably the rule rather than the exception...


Matt

[Matt Starr]

when you say found in a lake do you mean just the projectile, or complete rounds? if it was just the projectile then they would have been fired in the lake at drones for target practice, in the book i'm reading he just talked about firing into lake, coincidence huh
Matt

[blinky]

That's what I like about this forum....ask a simple question an education on top of an answer! Thanks guys!

Matt S, I think they must have found unfired shells in the lake. The shell that Matt L has looks the same as mine condition-wise and mine was complete (minus propellent) and unfired.

Eric

[Zünder]

The 3 cm rounds were found, still in their wooden crates.
The seemingly random filling of artillery practiceshells can partially be explained:

most large artillery shooting ranges had a workshop were shot shells were fitted with new drivingbands.
They collected the shot practiceshells on the range, brought them to the workshop, gave them new drivingbands and a coat of paint, and they were ready for use again.
This was done with shells from 7,5 cm and onwards, and with practiceshells and proofshots.
Off course not all could be retrieved, so they must have had problems supplying the demanded number of rounds/shells for new troops.
In order to meet the demand, why not "make do" with whatever you can get, either normal HE shells, or factory new shells with a selfmade filling ?

Pro-german countries like Hungary used and produced german designed weapons as well, and made both german and hungarian designed shells for them.
They also bought german shells and filled them according to their own regulations.
These shells might look german, but can have another inert filling: hungarians used chalk, germans used mainly tar.

To make it even more confusing: the germans used hungarian ammo as well...