Frag Sleve

[reidmuller]

hi sorry, yes i was refering to my sleeve when i was talking about the irreularity.
As for the fuze that was added by me as i am trying to complete the item but havent been able to get an origional fuze so the fuze has never been nere the grenade till i put it on. so you can disregard the fuze.
i have just found a magnifying glass and can now see a b just abouve the secon 4
sorry i cant be of more help Adam

[milsurp]

Nonesense your being loads of help.

Can I just clarify one point. When I am talking about irregularity, I don't mean that the squares are 4mm x 5mm and so not a perfect square, I am talking about the drooping corners and raised edges that are made in the sleeve, which are easily visible in the first pic. It gives the appearence that the metal may have been stamped then scored whilst the metal was hot. Are we talking about the same irregularity? The reason I seek clarification is I don't see this on your sleeve, now perhaps that is the lack of focus on your photos, I can't be sure.

OK cool, that explains the fuse. Now it would be interesting if the remaining 2 characters formed brb or bcd. Thanks for having a closer look.

Cheers,

Craig.

[Willi Z.]

Looks good to me. Notice the oxidation overall. Though it may not show in the photos, there's probably a lot of subtle variation in the green paint as it aged over the years. I have a solid green painted German helmet from WW1, there must be a million different shades of green to it now.

Exactly! Have said this in the past about other sleeves that have been presented. Not a matter of the markings. A matter of having the "right look". Both of the sleeves presented here have it.

[reidmuller]

Nonesense your being loads of help.

Can I just clarify one point. When I am talking about irregularity, I don't mean that the squares are 4mm x 5mm and so not a perfect square, I am talking about the drooping corners and raised edges that are made in the sleeve, which are easily visible in the first pic. It gives the appearence that the metal may have been stamped then scored whilst the metal was hot. Are we talking about the same irregularity? The reason I seek clarification is I don't see this on your sleeve, now perhaps that is the lack of focus on your photos, I can't be sure.

OK cool, that explains the fuse. Now it would be interesting if the remaining 2 characters formed brb or bcd. Thanks for having a closer look.

Cheers,

Craig.

ok by irregular i mean that the vertical scores are very different one gap between 2 lines is say 9mm and the next is 13mm (sorry i dont have a ruler at hand to check exactly but they are extremly different distances at a geuss 4mm)and they are drooping at the bottom end as you say the hotizontal scores are more uniform gaps but still slight differences and seem to be on a slant.
but the raised edges you mention arnt there it is relatively flat
at a geuss the mark is brb i have rubbed some chalk on and has worked very well and looks like an "r" as i can see a strate edge but defenatley a "b" at the end
hope this has helped some more
Adam

[milsurp]

Yes it has thanks Adam. I guess it's the quality of the photos I am struggling with and I would guess it is also brb44 as in the first sleeve. Nice piece.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Cheers,

Craig.

[milsurp]

I disagree, we don't know a lot about frag sleeves, so every last drop of information is important.

Exactly! Have said this in the past about other sleeves that have been presented. Not a matter of the markings. A matter of having the "right look". Both of the sleeves presented here have it.

[Willi Z.]

I disagree, we don't know a lot about frag sleeves, so every last drop of information is important.

I disagree, there are plenty of collectors who know a good one from a bad one. This is not a new hobby, there is alot of knowledge out there.

[milsurp]

I think there are a lot of people who are confused by what constitutes a good or bad sleeve, beyond the 'feels right' factor. Some are obviously fakes, some are questionable, some are not. As there is simply a lack of info on these, people almost invariably start their sentence with IMO... because there is no factual info to back up their claim.

We don't know which firms made them for a start. OK, Richard Rinker made these, but who else made frag sleeves, there isn't a paper trail for such items, no part manufacturers list or anything. If you remember my frag sleeve marked ar4, I have shown it to a few ordnance dealers and one in particular I know you respect his opinion and he said he believed it was original. Now I don't care if it isn't genuine, but I would like to know one way or the other. I have seen the picture you referenced in the past in J Angolia's book and OK that is one tiny picture of one sleeve, that everyone agrees is correct, but that is only one sleeve. I doubt if RR were the only manufacturers of these, they can't have been, so who else made them and what do they look like? If there are plenty of collectors who know a good one from a bad one, apart from the 'feels right' factor and the one know original what facts are they basing their opinion on?

I disagree, there are plenty of collectors who know a good one from a bad one. This is not a new hobby, there is alot of knowledge out there.

[Willi Z.]

Recalling our "disagreements" on other threads relating to this matter, how do you tell a good smooth frag sleeve from a bad one when they are no stampings? It comes down to looking at the age patterns of the paint. Just like helmets and MANY other German WWII field gear items. What "facts" are you hoping to find? The "feel right" factor is what has built the finest collections in the world and is where the original items are resting. The study of those same items is what gives others the "feel right" factor. Knowledge and experience as I have stated before.

[milsurp]

On smooth frag sleeves with no mm, there is no other way, even if it had an mm, I would still rely on this method. Even with serrated frag sleeves this is still very important, but because of the extra detail in the manufacturing process, there is so much more to go on.

I would like to find another manufacturer who was documented as a producer of serrated frag sleeves, or a document that stated RR was the sole supplier of serrated frag sleeves. I'm not trying to suggest that they are all original until proven fake, I simply want to find out as much as I can about these, because they are simple items and it shouldn't be such an arduous task. I saw a picture a few weeks ago of a russian style RGD-33 frag sleeve attached to an M24 that was dug up in Russia. Now the diameters are quite different, about .5cm, it certainly didn't strike me as a field mod and as such must have been manufactured for the M24. This was absolute news to me and as such proves that we don't know as much as we think we do about these. How many of these diamond frag sleeves exist in these "finest collections" you mention?

Recalling our "disagreements" on other threads relating to this matter, how do you tell a good smooth frag sleeve from a bad one when they are no stampings? It comes down to looking at the age patterns of the paint. Just like helmets and MANY other German WWII field gear items. What "facts" are you hoping to find? The "feel right" factor is what has built the finest collections in the world and is where the original items are resting. The study of those same items is what gives others the "feel right" factor. Knowledge and experience as I have stated before.