German ammobox, more info?

[Thrill Me]

This is one of my collection. Does anyone has some more info about this German ammunition box from 1943? For wich gun where these bullets used? If you even find a pic where it's seen at or a bullet, give me a link please. Also what means tha Luft M...??? Can't read it very well. Thanks.

Tim

[derspiess63]

Hi Tim,
what you have here is a Luftwaffe munition kiste fur 2cm brand und spreng Patronen mit leuchtspur(rot),i.e. an LW issue ammo box containing 20mm explosive/incendiary ammo with red tracer for the Flak 30/38 gun...or for the KwK auto cannon of the same caliber!Some boxes were lined with zinc sheet but it looks like your hasn't been in the first place!The label indicates that the powder charge was strenghtened and the factory that produced the ammo was Polte-Werke,in its Gruneberg plant(auy) or in the Magdeburg one(aux)...cannot read the code well,sorry!
Nice piece and very useful to sore items belonging to your collection !
The German used them to carry spares or personal belonging too!
Nice find!
Manuel

[Bill Grist]

Hi Tim,
what you have here is a Luftwaffe munition kiste fur 2cm brand und spreng Patronen mit leuchtspur(rot),i.e. an LW issue ammo box containing 20mm explosive/incendiary ammo with red tracer for the Flak 30/38 gun...or for the KwK auto cannon of the same caliber!Some boxes were lined with zinc sheet but it looks like your hasn't been in the first place!The label indicates that the powder charge was strenghtened and the factory that produced the ammo was Polte-Werke,in its Gruneberg plant(auy) or in the Magdeburg one(aux)...cannot read the code well,sorry!
Nice piece and very useful to sore items belonging to your collection !
The German used them to carry spares or personal belonging too!
Nice find!
Manuel

Tim, The blue stripe denotes that the cases were made of steel and not brass...

[derspiess63]

Tim, The blue stripe denotes that the cases were made of steel and not brass...

You're correct Bill....I forgot to say that !
Ciao,
Manuel

[Thrill Me]

Thanks! This is verry helpfully for me..

@derspiess63 : it has the following on it..




100
2 cm Brend - Sprenggranat - Patronen
vk. L?spur (rot)
auf. 82. L 44.
39, ?? Nz. R. P. (3.3. / 0,5) wal. 1943
?? ?,5 g Nz Bell P. (1,5.1,5/2.76) röf . ????
------------------------------------------
Pathr.: (St) ?ck. * cg. 17h. L. 43 Geschoß 119g
Zdh.:92??? ad. 69. L. 44 Geschoßhulle : boo.3b, L43
Kartuschb. 41 : Kbv.1100. L. 43. Kpf. Z. Zerl. Fg : fhm. 228. L. 43.
Dupl.Kapsel : (Lm) wir.2208. L.43. Sprgidg? lwd.33. L.44.
Usp? ....................

O?ie?figt am : ....................................

-- the ? are pieces paper who are not readable more or away.

[derspiess63]

Thanks! This is verry helpfully for me..

@derspiess63 : it has the following on it..




100
2 cm Brend - Sprenggranat - Patronen
vk. L?spur (rot)
auf. 82. L 44.
39, ?? Nz. R. P. (3.3. / 0,5) wal. 1943
?? ?,5 g Nz Bell P. (1,5.1,5/2.76) röf . ????
------------------------------------------
Pathr.: (St) ?ck. * cg. 17h. L. 43 Geschoß 119g
Zdh.:92??? ad. 69. L. 44 Geschoßhulle : boo.3b, L43
Kartuschb. 41 : Kbv.1100. L. 43. Kpf. Z. Zerl. Fg : fhm. 228. L. 43.
Dupl.Kapsel : (Lm) wir.2208. L.43. Sprgidg? lwd.33. L.44.
Usp? ....................

O?ie?figt am : ....................................

-- the ? are pieces paper who are not readable more or away.

Thanks! This is verry helpfully for me..

@derspiess63 : it has the following on it..




100
2 cm Brend - Sprenggranat - Patronen
vk. L?spur (rot)
auf. 82. L 44.
39, ?? Nz. R. P. (3.3. / 0,5) wal. 1943
?? ?,5 g Nz Bell P. (1,5.1,5/2.76) röf . ????
------------------------------------------
Pathr.: (St) ?ck. * cg. 17h. L. 43 Geschoß 119g
Zdh.:92??? ad. 69. L. 44 Geschoßhulle : boo.3b, L43
Kartuschb. 41 : Kbv.1100. L. 43. Kpf. Z. Zerl. Fg : fhm. 228. L. 43.
Dupl.Kapsel : (Lm) wir.2208. L.43. Sprgidg? lwd.33. L.44.
Usp? ....................

O?ie?figt am : ....................................

-- the ? are pieces paper who are not readable more or away.

Thanks! This is verry helpfully for me..

@derspiess63 : it has the following on it..




100
2 cm Brend - Sprenggranat - Patronen
vk. L?spur (rot)
auf. 82. L 44.
39, ?? Nz. R. P. (3.3. / 0,5) wal. 1943
?? ?,5 g Nz Bell P. (1,5.1,5/2.76) röf . ????
------------------------------------------
Pathr.: (St) ?ck. * cg. 17h. L. 43 Geschoß 119g
Zdh.:92??? ad. 69. L. 44 Geschoßhulle : boo.3b, L43
Kartuschb. 41 : Kbv.1100. L. 43. Kpf. Z. Zerl. Fg : fhm. 228. L. 43.
Dupl.Kapsel : (Lm) wir.2208. L.43. Sprgidg? lwd.33. L.44.
Usp? ....................

O?ie?figt am : ....................................

-- the ? are pieces paper who are not readable more or away.

100:number of rounds inside of box(100)
2cm Brand-sprenggranat patronen:2cm incendiary-explosive projectiles
L'Spur(rot):Red tracer compound
auy/aux:letter codes assigned to Polte-Werke(i don't think it's auf for auf produced other metal items)82 is rather a 42 which stands for lot42 and L44 is the year L is the week or month..I don't remember well!
39N.Z.RP(3.3/0,5)Wal 43:39 gramsNitro/Cellulose tubolar powder(3.3mmx0,5mm) produced by Walsrode in 1943
??5gNZ.....additional strenghtening charge
.................................................. .................................................. ..
Patrh.:St.Lck*cg 17h L43 Gesch.119g:Steel laquered case made by Finower GmbH(cg) in 1943 lot 17h with a single vent for the primer's flash..weight of the projectile 119grams
Zdh:92 ad 69 L44 Gescosshulle boo 3b L43:grenade primer type 92 made by Patronen-Zunduchten-und.Metallwaren Fabrik(ad)in 1944(L ) case made by boo( ) in 1943(L) lot 3b
Kartuschb.41:kwb 1100 L43 Kf.Z. Zerl Fg:fhm 228 L43:concerns the silk bag containing the powder and something else I cannot translate
Dupl KapselLm)wir 2208 L43 Primer made by wir(?) in 43(L?)
Sprgdg lwd 33 L44:the expolosive contained in the grenade was made by Gesellschaft zur Verwertung chemischer Erzeugnisse GmbH Ludwigdorfplant(lwd)in 43 lot 33
last line(virtually unreadable!) is the tracer compound!
Gefertig an...roughly translates in "the whole damned thing was finally concocted and ready to be thrown against low-flying P47s on..... !
Hope it helps!
Manuel

[Zünder]

"Kf.Z. Zerl Fg:fhm 228 L43"
This part tells more about the fuze used, in this case a "Kopfzünder mit Zerleger fliehgewichtsantrieb" ( self destructing headfuze)
"fhm"is the factory code.
"228" the LOT number
"L " stands for the amount of fuzes made in that LOT , 12000 fuzes.
"43"is the year of production.

Does "V.K."not mean "verkürzter Leuchtspur ", shortened tracer ?

[derspiess63]

"Kf.Z. Zerl Fg:fhm 228 L43"
This part tells more about the fuze used, in this case a "Kopfzünder mit Zerleger fliehgewichtsantrieb" ( self destructing headfuze)
"fhm"is the factory code.
"228" the LOT number
"L " stands for the amount of fuzes made in that LOT , 12000 fuzes.
"43"is the year of production.

Does "V.K."not mean "verkürzter Leuchtspur ", shortened tracer ?

Thanks Zunder,
in fact I couldn't fully understand the line concerning the self-destructing headfuze!
I didn't know that "L"stand for the number of pieces produced in a lot...I thought it was related to the part of the year.
Are you sure that V.K. doesn't stand for strenghtened propellant charge?...in fact I think there's something referring to a further 5grms or so of propellant!Tell me more....those German Labels are quite fascinating,although quite puzzling!
Hope to hear!
Manuel
P.S.;I only collect 8x57 ammo in 15 crtrdgs boxes...so please pardon my blunders(Schnitzern) when trying to read that label...so eine blamage !

[Zünder]

Fact is, shells with a shortened tracer were made for the 2 cm Flak 38, i think 5 different versions.
And when you look at the label, you can clearly see "vk. L'spur", which can only be translated in "shortened tracer'.

The 2 cm vk L' spur rounds are rare, i've never seen one.
So it's safe to say, the box is rare as well, the "Luft (Luftwaffe) Munition"stamp only add's more value, most cases were stamped "Heeres Munition".

[derspiess63]

Fact is, shells with a shortened tracer were made for the 2 cm Flak 38, i think 5 different versions.
And when you look at the label, you can clearly see "vk. L'spur", which can only be translated in "shortened tracer'.

The 2 cm vk L' spur rounds are rare, i've never seen one.
So it's safe to say, the box is rare as well, the "Luft (Luftwaffe) Munition"stamp only add's more value, most cases were stamped "Heeres Munition".

ABSOLUTELY MY FAULT!!!!
I only focused on the big VK and assumed there was a strenghtened charge reading about "those"grams of propellant!I should haver carefully read the "small"vk.L'spur!Thanks Zunder 1
By the way...I own a 20mm Explosive/Incendiary/Tracer in its original carton container which is stamped above the driving band with the WaA number and an"M"under the tiny eagle,which I think it stands for Marine,as oin other items...do you think it's rare as well?

[Zünder]

If it's a Navy round, it should not have a WaA stamp, but an eagle with an M on one side and a roman number on the other.
Both shell and case should be navy stamped.

And yes, if it's a Navy round, it's rare..What kind of fuze does it have ?

[derspiess63]

If it's a Navy round, it should not have a WaA stamp, but an eagle with an M on one side and a roman number on the other.
Both shell and case should be navy stamped.

And yes, if it's a Navy round, it's rare..What kind of fuze does it have ?

You're correct Zunder...the eagle is not a Waffenamt one but is in fact a small eagle with an M on its left-hand side when viewed from the front!Bullet is yellow with a red stripe right above the soft metal driving band and its fuze is a 2cm Kpf.Z.45 czs(Brennabor Werke-AG) made in 41..it also has the number 472.The tip is covered bi a thin aluminum roundel.
The case is protected by brown backelite laquer and it's not Navy stamped in spite of having been a complete round(now with both the case and bullet emptied)for the past 60 years.
Cardboard container is stamped ggk,which is a manufacturer I often find on 8mm ammo cardboard boxes!
Manuel

[Thrill Me]

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwww!!! ! Thank you guys for this info! I never tought I would get this... Vielen Danke!!! Tim
by the way ; I bought this box about 3 years ago for 10 euro's from a collector.

[Zünder]

10 euro's is a bargain, very well done..

I always visit the fair in Ciney, but the prices there have gone up considerably over the last few years.

[Thrill Me]

I do a lot of flea markets and sometimes a militaria dealer fair like the one in Gent every year at 11 november. Just for looking , to much fakes there and the real stuff is too expensive.. Just some pictures I buy sometimes there.