Items from the Prinz Eugen - vet estate

[harrison987]

Hey guys...

I have around a 1" pile of documents and letters. I did not advertise any documentation with the items (apart from the clock, as it is the most significant item)...as it is just very difficult to go through everything to select what could go with what. I have no problem including a document or two with any item I am selling, if the buyer wishes.

Regarding the above comment, I did feel like people were saying that I was making this up...or that I could not personally "prove" these came from the Eugen, as Commander Handley did not take photos of him removing the items directly.

So in some ways it was a bit offensive...

Mike

[BenVK]

nobody in this thread has suggested or implied that Mike has made up the story

Not directly Norm but the insinuations are obvious and clear.

Tempers aren't flaring, I'm just a bit shocked by how Mike is being treated.
Saying that the provenance will be lost unless he sells some documents with each item is just plain ridiculous. It's all been photographed!
And anyway, anyone who is serious about buying anything from this group will have contacted Mike directly, like I have, and seen photos of all the relating documentation, which he was all too happy to provide.

[John R.]

There were many items removed from PE by officers and men (US) that have come up for sale over the years. I have obtained a wonderful group of tallies, HSF, photos, much much more from the family of one of the US sailors for example in Texas through an Ebay listing. They did provide some paperwork and photos, but there was a lot more that arrived after I purchased the group.

Large numbers of items were also transferred through trade and gifts from the 300 PE sailors to their US counterparts during the trip back to the east coast. Many of these sailors kept them until their death and such items did come up on eBay.

Just like what Mike is saying.

The US Chief Engineer had the hardest job of anybody since PE used high pressure boilers as opposed to the US 600 psi plants and the PE engine machinery was carefully studied by US engineers. So it was vital for the safety of the ship German engine types helped the US sailors sail this cruiser all the way to the atoll where it lays upside down. One screw was removed by US amphibious ships in the 70's and returned to Germany where I have visited it a number of time.

I have no issue with the story of Mike and why should anybody else in this case. It is not that uncommon.

Unfortunately, even though I was a high pressure steam propulsion engineer many many years ago, I cannot identify the items, but that should not be a surprise since these came from a German ship.

If Mike wants to post a couple pieces of paperwork from the estate, that would be personally interesting to me and the other posters. I think that would put this discussion to rest.

Please refrain from any insults to Mike's integrity. Of course you can cast doubts, that is what this forum is famous for I guess, but not Mike's word.

I understand that the entering argument is "prove it" but sometimes it cannot. But, in this case, Mike, please just post some documents when you get a chance as that is the only way you will satisfy the curiosity of some of the posters.

Just how the forum works. And, if I was selling on eBay, I definitely would have added some docs to add provenance to the listing. My advice anyway.

John

[Norm F]

I understand that the entering argument is "prove it" but sometimes it cannot. But, in this case, Mike, please just post some documents when you get a chance as that is the only way you will satisfy the curiosity of some of the posters.

Just how the forum works. And, if I was selling on eBay, I definitely would have added some docs to add provenance to the listing. My advice anyway.

John

I see you have listed your items on ebay.

Best of luck.

JustinG

Based upon the above hint, I went to eBay and saw that Mike posted some images of the Handley documents there. Here they are for future reference.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

I also have the original Engine Room handbook and manuals from the ship, and various other items that prove they are from Prinz Eugen.

From another of Mike's listings. Probably would have been better to lead with this stuff.

[Norm F]

I got them from the estate of Commander William Handley...who served as Chief Engineer on the Prinz Eugen....and was one of the 8 US Navy personnel who took part in bringing her (and the German crew) over to the USA in late 1945/1946

Roster of the "U.S.S. Prinz Eugen"

[Norm F]

I was especially intrigued by Mike's listing of a print of an oil painting in the same lot, because we've seen another one of these prints in the same type of frame posted here in 2017:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru....php?p=7873700

Makes you wonder if they kept a stock of these as presentation pieces for service on the ship. It appears that the one in the other thread was presented earlier when there was a different first officer on the ship.

Can anyone read the signature on this one? I thought that the first officer of Prinz Eugen was supposed to be Fregattenkapitän Bernhard Busse from Oct 44 to May 45, but that looks like someone else's name?

Best regards,
---Norm

Addendum: Looking into it further, I believe "i.V." stands either for "in Vertretung" - "representing" - or "in Vollmacht" - "by authority of", so it would seem that is the signature of someone who was standing in for the first officer at that time.

[Marcel Banziger]

Provenance like this is golden! This shows that such documents are important to show because otherwise it's just another sale story. And not trying to be offensive, but there are just too many dubious items offered with wonderful stories without anything to back up the stories. If some of those documents would've been shown in the openingpost I think this thread would've went differently, without doubts from the forum.
And again, as mentioned here, this was not a personal attack on Mike. The forum is just dubious when items are presented with great stories without any provenance. Now the provenance is excellent and so extended that it is just a wonderful grouping. Without it would just be some random items with a story. Nothing more nothing less.

[BenVK]

Glad to see that we're all on the same page now.

I spotted this photo on ebay yesterday showing another artwork in situ on the Prinz Eugen.

[HockeyCam]

I saw this estate auction and actually bid on the clock myself, but i was way out of the ball park (being in Australia hurts cause of exchange rate too ).

Gutted I missed out, but looking at the ebay listing i don't think i was ever in it haha. I've been looking for a nice brass ships clock for a while and that estate auction was what led me to this forum.

I found the stack of photos with the accompanying legend describing each one absolutely fascinating as well, I can't imagine something like that comes up very often. Just some incredible items that came up in that estate sale.