tropical uniforms vs HBT uniforms, opinions.

[Zip3120]

Hi guys
I would like to start a discussion about tropical and HBT uniforms.
As some of you already know, my collection is essentially based on historical reconstruction of the major battles of the Second World War, with an eye for those fought by the Italians and especially for all the battles of the Italian campaign, my favored.

During my historical research on the uniforms wore by the Germans in the summer time I came across a problem... When and where tropical or HBT uniforms had been issued to the troops? Was there a regulation that established the geographical areas in which the tropical uniforms were to be used instead of the HBT or continental summer tunics?

When I was a young collector I thought tropical uniforms had been worn only in Africa and, after the defeat of the axis troops, the remaining of them were utilized by troops figting in hot climates.
The problem arose when I discovered that the production of tropical uniforms continued until the end of the war. I have indeed a second pattern tunic with its breeches both dated 44!
So if the production of tropical uniforms continued until the end of the war why Germans needed to develop the summer Hbt uniform having already available the tropical one?

The problem is further complicated by analyzing the uniforms worn in the Italian campaign. We can note here the presence of units using tropical uniforms and other wearing HBT uniforms. (we can see also photos that highlight the use of tropical uniforms in winter time!)
So what was the criterion?

I would be very pleased to know the opinion of the various experts in tropical and continental uniforms present here.

Ciao
Marco

[galizien41]

I do not know the answer as to why or when or where the regulations stated, but Nice grouping of worn tunics!!!

[Lt. Dan]

I'll watch this thread with interest. One of my first acquisitions (while in high school MANY years ago) was an HBT tunic and trouser set with two sets of panzer grenadier unterofficer shoulder boards. Sadly, I parted with it long ago. My well used 1st model tropical tunic takes a little of the sting away, but still wish I had that set. Beautiful tunics in any case.

[NZMark]

Tropical service tunics were produced before HBT (field) tunics which first saw regular issue in Russia as the troops there went into the hot summer wearing wool combat tunics. The first HBT 'standard' 1st pattern (bloused pocket) tunics that I have yet seen are dated 1942 - then straight into 2nd pattern HBT the same year.
Tropical tunics were first produced in 1940 for service in Africa (1st patterns 1940-42, 2nd Pattern 1941-44, 3rd Pattern 1942-44 but that is just what I have yet seen/owned) - then also saw service in The Soviet Union in less numbers than HBT.
It was a case of troops wearing what they were issued (unless procured) - HBT and twill tunics worn together in France, the Med', Russia, Balkans -anywhere warm.
Mark
NZ

[Zip3120]

Tropical tunics were produced before HBT (field) tunics which first saw regular service in Russia as the troops there went into the hot summer wearing wool combat tunics. The first HBT 'standard' 1st pattern (bloused pocket) tunics that I have yet seen are dated 1942 - then straight into 2nd pattern HBT the same year.
Tropical tunics were first produced in 1940 for service in Africa - then also saw service in The Soviet Union in less numbers than HBT.
It was a case of troops wearing what they were issued (unless procured) - HBT and twill tunics in France, the Med', Russia, Balkans -anywhere warm.
Mark
NZ

Correct Mark
Hbt tunic production started on 1942 (official name Drillichrock 42) with its first pattern and after a really short period of time their production ceased to give way to the second pattern, followed in 43 by the third pattern.

However, we must remember that the German army used HBT uniform since 1933 (Drillichrock 33) in whitish color and Drillichrock 33 on Apr 12 1940 became green in color (Schilfgrün). Drillichrock 33, which was purely a work uniform, however it was worn as a combat uniform in the hot season until 1942. From 1942 onwards germans, as mentioned, used a real HBT combat uniform.

This is the history.
So we can establish some points:
1) the German army at the beginning of the war often used in action the green reed working uniform M33 during the summer time, especially in areas with hot weather (Balkans and southern areas of the eastern front).
2) the German army developed a tropical uniform exclusively dedicated to the troops sent to Africa.

Until here everything goes smoothly.

My questions start here.

Why did germans develop Drillichrock 42 having available tropical uniforms?
Why did germans continue to produce tropical uniforms after the defeat in africa having available the Drillichrock 42?
Why in Italy we can see units wearing tropical uniforms and other wearing Hbt uniforms?
Did germans issue tropical uniforms in south front even before 1942?

Marco

[derka]

The HBT suit was initialy intended in 1933 as drill or fatigue dress, to avoid the wool tunic to suffer too much quick and unjustified alterations when not used in combat areas.
Its manufacturing cost was far lower than a Feldbluse, another reason from an economical point of wiew.
As Mark noticed, it is after the hot experience in Greece and Russia during spring/summer 41 than a new four pocket HBT tunic was produced in 1942, intended to be able to replace the wool tunic as a Feldbluse equivalent when temperatures were too hot, but it was still a dual purpose effect.
Every soldier in Heer was supposed to be issued at least one set.
I'm not sure, but i don't think tropical service tunics were intended to be used as a fatigue uniform; they were rater specific combat items for units who were trained for fight in tropical climate, and mostly only issued to them.
That said, in 1943 in Italy untill 1945, those theorical rules of supplying troops with those 2 categories of uniforms were far to be followed, and tropical tunics (and specific stuff like shorts, shirts, boots) were issued to standart units too.
I suppose avaible supplies in an area at one moment was the main pragmatic criteria, but it is just my opinion.
derka

[pauke]

light-weight material

Just to add to the conversation the Imperial Army had a "raw" off-white HBT or Drillich work uniform preceding anything mentioned so far.

[slade007]

Uniforms;

Would it have anything to do with the severe shortage of cotton after the material shortages starting in 1942 and the abundance of hemp that the HBTs were made of? Just asking.
Great looking worn tunics above by the way. Just like I like them.

[NZMark]

I have specifically not included the 'oatmeal' fatigue uniform in regards to field tunics, but as it has been noted these were worn at times in Russia when it simply became too hot to wear the wool tunic as needs required.
Tropical tunics were specifically developed while HBT 1st patterns were a logical copy of an existing pattern, just in another material.
I agree that economics and supply played a huge part in what was produced and manufactured - (look at the diverse HBT manufactured uniform items - wraps, overalls, kielhose, KM Coastal etc etc) but tropical tunics were produced as a longer run in it's various forms than HBT, but in fewer numbers over-all with less diversity I would think.
Mark
NZ

[Zip3120]

Tropical tunics were specifically developed while HBT 1st patterns were a logical copy of an existing pattern, just in another material.

Yes tropical tunics were specifically developed for the troops sent to africa and Hbt were a copy of the feldbluse but made in light fabric for hot weather.

However, my questions remain:
Why did germans develop Drillichrock 42 having already available tropical uniforms? could not they use for all their soldier tropical uniforms in the summer time?
Moreover why did germans continue to produce tropical uniforms after the defeat in africa having available now the Drillichrock 42?

I think this was not accidental, but there was a precise reason for this fact...

Someone told me that there were precise geographical rules to issue to the troops tropical or continental effects.

In Italy, for example, fighting troops below Naples line had to be equipped with tropical effects only. This could be the reason why production of tropical uniforms continued even after the axis expulsion from Africa.

Examining well the two different tunics we notice that they have essentially two different characteristics: the open neck and the different camo color.

Probably open neck was not judged suitable for continental summer climate and dark green color is more correct to the continental vegetation comouflage.

Therefore I think existed a regulation that established the geographical areas in which the tropical uniforms had to be used or not.

Regarding the mixing of tropical and HBT tunics wore in italy I think that it has been due to lack of supplies and lack of materials. German troops, equipped with tropical effect, continued to wear their uniforms even during the retreat, arriving in areas with a completely different climate. Insted troops arrived directly in the Italian continental climate zones wore the correct hbt uniforms in summer time.

I'd like to know what do you think about it.

Ciao
Marco

[anmarlodz]

Tropical jacket were used as well in Southern France, Greece, costal regions of Yugoslavia and in southern Russia ( for example in Crimea pennisula ). In other words they seen action not only in Africa or Italy, but overall in all hot areas ( southern part of Europe ).

The other thing they are designed in a bit diffrent way than light summer hbt jackets.
The tropical jackets were always ( except for 4 pattern with button up collar ) made of cotton cloth.
The summer hbt jacket were made of all type hbt cloth ( cotton, linen, mixed cotton/linen ).
The tropical jackets were stricly designed for use in geograficaly hot areas and were made as early as 1940 ( primary designed for use in areas typical for, I guess, pre I WW german, colonial teritories with lot of tropcial forests and savannah - that's way very early uniforms and equipment were made from deep green dyed and impregnated cloth - later war examples were made from diffrent shades of tan to diffrent shades of brown or even light green ).
The hbt tropical jackets were made, you can as result of "accident at work", as reaction for need of troops for something suitable for hot seasons ( remember that Barbarossa was planned as quick campaign, which supposed to take 3-4 months and not longer, so at that moment, there was no need for extra summer uniforms ). The hbt summer jackets ( or overall uniforms ) start to show up in spring/summer 1942.

[Zip3120]

Tropical jacket were used as well in Southern France, Greece, costal regions of Yugoslavia and in southern Russia ( for example in Crimea pennisula ). In other words they seen action not only in Africa or Italy, but overall in all hot areas ( southern part of Europe ).

The other thing they are designed in a bit diffrent way than light summer hbt jackets.
The tropical jackets were always ( except for 4 pattern with button up collar ) made of cotton cloth.
The summer hbt jacket were made of all type hbt cloth ( cotton, linen, mixed cotton/linen ).
The tropical jackets were stricly designed for use in geograficaly hot areas and were made as early as 1940 ( primary designed for use in areas typical for, I guess, pre I WW german, colonial teritories with lot of tropcial forests and savannah - that's way very early uniforms and equipment were made from deep green dyed and impregnated cloth - later war examples were made from diffrent shades of tan to diffrent shades of brown or even light green ).
The hbt tropical jackets were made, you can as result of "accident at work", as reaction for need of troops for something suitable for hot seasons ( remember that Barbarossa was planned as quick campaign, which supposed to take 3-4 months and not longer, so at that moment, there was no need for extra summer uniforms ). The hbt summer jackets ( or overall uniforms ) start to show up in spring/summer 1942.

Thank you anmarlodz for your contribution.

I know that originally tropical uniforms were only intended for wear in North Africa and then that was later expanded to include personnel serving in all the southern areas of continental Europe during the summer months.

This confirm that there had to be a regulation that established in what hot areas tropical uniform had to be wear and where not and in which months of the year.

Moreover I thought a long time about the classification of tropical jackets proposed by some collectors and for me it is not correct to describe Südfront tunics as the 4th pattern of the tropical jacket.
Tropical jackets has two characteristic elements: open neck and breast eagle partially over the breast pocket. Südfront tunics don't have these elements.
I think that is more correct to classify them as continental tunics made in a light fabric, like for example the Italian tropical cloth "Olona". Rightly they have a closed neck and consequently breast eagle in normal position.
Attached is my Südfront uniform found in Italy years ago.

Ciao
Marco

[Tim O'Keefe]

Correct Mark
Hbt tunic production started on 1942 (official name Drillichrock 42) with its first pattern and after a really short period of time their production ceased to give way to the second pattern, followed in 43 by the third pattern.

My questions start here.

1. Why did germans develop Drillichrock 42 having available tropical uniforms?
2. Why did germans continue to produce tropical uniforms after the defeat in africa having available the Drillichrock 42?
3. Why in Italy we can see units wearing tropical uniforms and other wearing Hbt uniforms?
4. Did germans issue tropical uniforms in south front even before 1942?

Marco

Hi Marco

This is a great thread with lots of interesting info & photos of tropical & HBT tunics

1. As late as 1938 there were no plans for using tropical uniforms. Only later did it become apparent that they would be neccessary. The HBT was issued to the solders with wool jackets instead of the tropical tunic as part of the kit. The solder either was issued tropical kit or European kit not both.

2. Have heard of the Naples line, in that units below this longitude were issued tropical kit. Greece & Krimea etc. So not just for Afrika as was originally planned.

3. Some units were issued tropical kit, others issued wool kits including the HBT.
Have seen photos of Germans in tropical kit throughout Italy during the war. Maybe it was a Northern/Southern thing initially ?

4. In Greece for example, the initial German units that invaded in April '41 wore wool uniforms and were withdrawn for Russia before being issued tropical kit. Units that arrived as early as Feb '42 can be seen wearing tropical kit.

There was a tropical depot just outside of Prague where many units exchanged their European kit for tropical and headed south.
The 4th SS Polozie Div traded it's wool kit for tropical and left for Greece. Upon returning from Greece in '44 they exchanged their tropical kit back to wool agian in Prague. this depot survived into the post war.

Units in the Krimea were also issued tropical kit sometime in early 1942.

Agree about the "4th pattern" tropical tunic

Can anyone else add anything ?

caio

Tim

[Zip3120]

Hi Marco

This is a great thread with lots of interesting info & photos of tropical & HBT tunics

1. As late as 1938 there were no plans for using tropical uniforms. Only later did it become apparent that they would be neccessary. The HBT was issued to the solders with wool jackets instead of the tropical tunic as part of the kit. The solder either was issued tropical kit or European kit not both.

2. Have heard of the Naples line, in that units below this longitude were issued tropical kit. Greece & Krimea etc. So not just for Afrika as was originally planned.

3. Some units were issued tropical kit, others issued wool kits including the HBT.
Have seen photos of Germans in tropical kit throughout Italy during the war. Maybe it was a Northern/Southern thing initially ?

4. In Greece for example, the initial German units that invaded in April '41 wore wool uniforms and were withdrawn for Russia before being issued tropical kit. Units that arrived as early as Feb '42 can be seen wearing tropical kit.

There was a tropical depot just outside of Prague where many units exchanged their European kit for tropical and headed south.
The 4th SS Polozie Div traded it's wool kit for tropical and left for Greece. Upon returning from Greece in '44 they exchanged their tropical kit back to wool agian in Prague. this depot survived into the post war.

Units in the Krimea were also issued tropical kit sometime in early 1942.

Agree about the "4th pattern" tropical tunic

Can anyone else add anything ?

caio

Tim

Thank you Tim.
I am completely agree with you.

I would like to know other opinions and possibly other precious details...

Ciao
Marco