Combat tunic opinions please

[Patrick W]

,,,

[TONY GANZ]

m 36

Please search on youtube for "OSS training films, Meet your enemy". A detailed wartime film about a unit training Allied soldiers in German uniforms, tactics and weapons. The helmet shown in this thread is exactly what they are wearing. There is no doubt in my mind that these uniforms were made in Britain for Allied forces. They are close copies, but not the real thing.

[Patrick W]

Hi Tony

I searched and watched it and that has nailed it for me! same helmet with this vent hole and even better a close up of this exact strange bevo eagle with thick legs.
The proof is there in period film- this type of tunic was made by either OSS or the US equivalent as a training tool- amazing!

I thought I had picked up a load of rubbish but IMO this is much more interesting than a standard m36- these items came together from an estate auction here in the UK along with a very nice and early original army overseas cap. Incredible what you can still find.

[CWP]

I am convinced. The insignia and wool for me do not fit with the "mobilization" theory. That these were made as training tools for Allied troops makes much more sense to me.

[Mike Davis]

I suppose it is possible but I still have doubts. During wartime where would the British have gotten the wool, insignia, pebbled buttons, etc.? The mocked up uniforms worn by British troops in the linked thread do not look very accurate (not to mention the helmets). I certainly may be wrong but I'd think little things like pocket shapes, cut of collar, buttonholes, etc. would look look quite different if British-made.

[Patrick W]

here is the video clip, I watched, tunics and helmet appear the same as the examples posted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbfffbVi3gs

[Rogerd]

Indeed, the exact helmet! BTW the liner is the common British liner.
The eagle seen in close-up in the movie is the same one as on the jacket who started this post. Even the sewing looks the same.

If there is the same one in the IWM there should be not much doubt. They know what they have in their collection...

The helmet and jacket together are a very nice cath!

[Johnny R]

If the tunic was with the helmet that to me is a pretty good case for the jacket also being for training use and Allied made.

[Mike Davis]

Yes, thanks. I have seen this clip many times before. As I wrote above I think it is possible, still not conclusive IMO.

[phild]

I agree that the evidence now presented is strong in the direction that these are wartime British made copies of German tunics.

It is amazing that they are copied to this degree of detail, including the accuracy of the fabic as Mike and others have mentioned. The details were focused on the exterior with pure minimum utility driving the in interior construction.

It would be interesting to collect some data as to the backmarks of the buttons (if any) and construction details of these to see if they are all from the same source and if they too are copies.

One point that I think is very important in considering these as period German contract tunics is close look at the construction of the seams that run across the top of each shoulder. These appear to me from the photos to overlap to the rear rather than the front. If these are compared to ANY German made contract tunic you will see what I am talking about....assuming that what I think that I see in the photos is in fact the case.

This detail is missed on a lot of fakes (not so much any more) and IMO never varies on real German contract tunics of the period, except I have seen one case of a very late PZ wrap, 44 dated, with direct sewn Russia braid collar "tabs" and the tropical material used as lining...you know the variation, that had these 2 seams different on each shoulder! A bad day at the factory I guess.

For me if I had noticed this when this variation first was posted and believed to be a mobilization tunic I would have had major doubts for this characteristic alone.

[NickG]

I agree that the evidence now presented is strong in the direction that these are wartime British made copies of German tunics.
It is amazing that they are copied to this degree of detail, including the accuracy of the fabic as Mike and others have mentioned.
The details were focused on the exterior with pure minimum utility driving the in interior construction.

Bringing this old thread back to the top as I have found a blog that discusses wartime Allied copies of German uniforms!
Very interesting article! however the degree of accuracy and detail totally lacks....(as opposed to the uniform in this thread)
The piece does identify the maker of the copies of the German Stahlhelms.

According to the article: (1st Canadian Division German Demonstration Team)


January, 1943 between CMHQ and the British Ministry of Supply ordering 100 sets of imitation Germans tunics, side caps, belts, leather equipment and helmets,
most of which was delivered by the end of February. The goal was to replicate a German infantry unit, giving demonstrations of German drill, commands and infantry tactics.
(However according to the images the leather belts are pre WW1 British patterns....not German)

http://www.network54.com/Forum/28173...nstration+Team

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[NickG]

I suppose it is possible but I still have doubts. During wartime where would the British have gotten the wool, insignia, pebbled buttons, etc.? The mocked up uniforms worn by British troops in the linked thread do not look very accurate (not to mention the helmets). I certainly may be wrong but I'd think little things like pocket shapes, cut of collar, buttonholes, etc. would look look quite different if British-made.

I agree with Mike... I have doubts too! Those just look to accurate to be Allied copies...Note the position of the breast eagle, British style dome shaped buttons, oversized helmet eagles, oversized litzen and shoulder straps...None of it was very accurate...more "Hollywood" in quality!

[phild]

I agree with you to the extent that those in the photos, at least the close ups, are not the same as the tunics in question. My guess would be that there were more than one source and generation of German uniforms made in the UK for training.....the close ups show an earlier or less impressive version.

I think that the postings from some of the UK collectors who have some history with these versions sort of seal the deal.

These tunics could sort of illustrate some other discussions that have occurred recently on other non-textbook uniform items that are very controversial! In the case of these tunics, when you look at the details inside and outside you see it is all about appearance and nothing about longevity of wear. With the other item referenced the details are about making it stand up to service and utility and not even considering making it cosmetically identical to the "standard" item.

We could probably pick out 20-30 details on both items that would make that point.

[Diane]

Has anyone considered that these are movie props? Perhaps from a film like Stalag 17, or even The Great Escape?

So if they are movie props they could conceivably be 50 plus years old and that would explain the attention to detail, as well as the correct buttons and insignia.

[Kengir]

Has anyone considered that these are movie props? Perhaps from a film like Stalag 17, or even The Great Escape?

So if they are movie props they could conceivably be 50 plus years old and that would explain the attention to detail, as well as the correct buttons and insignia.

If I could find a genuine prop from The Great Escape....

-Jeremy