Infanterie NCO tunic - high price

[OSS]

It seems to me that the most desirable M36 tunics are mint examples complete with original factory applied insignia- branch piped litzen, early Bevo eagles. Any alterations such as shortened skirts or private purchase upgraded insignia do affect desirability, though for me personally these details add personality and character and actually make a worn uniform more appealing. The tunic in post #23 above has second pattern generic collar tabs as issued starting in May 1940. Although it is possible that this tunic was made after that date, it is perhaps more likely that the tunic was manufactured earlier and that these litzen are wartime replacements and not the original factory applied tabs, this is a commonly seen configuration in original photos but someone looking for an entirely pre-war ensemble would not be happy with this one.

Of course outside of "death and taxes" there is little absolute certainty in the world, however some eyes are more experienced than others and when it comes to M-36 tunics this seller is about as knowledgeable as they come (IMO).

[CWP]

To be clear, the quote above is about the tunic posted in post #23 and not the tunic in the E-Stand sale ad linked at the start of this thread. The tunic for sale is in a standard typical configuration for 1939 and likely retains the original factory applied first pattern generic backed litzen.

[phild]

It seems to me that the most desirable M36 tunics are mint examples complete with original factory applied insignia- branch piped litzen, early Bevo eagles. Any alterations such as shortened skirts or private purchase upgraded insignia do affect desirability, though for me personally these details add personality and character and actually make a worn uniform more appealing. The tunic in post #23 above has second pattern generic collar tabs as issued starting in May 1940. Although it is possible that this tunic was made after that date, it is perhaps more likely that the tunic was manufactured earlier and that these litzen are wartime replacements and not the original factory applied tabs, this is a commonly seen configuration in original photos but someone looking for an entirely pre-war ensemble would not be happy with this one.

A lot of interesting views and comments in this thread. The post above touches on most of them I think.

"Real" collectors like to think of themselves as purists.....but I really wonder sometimes. A true untouched factory tunic will have no shoulder boards, no special unit insignia nor awards.....sewn on or loops. It will have no attribution as it has to be un-issued in order to be un-touched.

I wonder if this is the state of WWII historical item collecting (un-touched = Pinnacle) these days? Before everyone starts shaking their heads and wanting to gore me admit that this is correct and that everything added to and or customized on a tunic DURING the period of WWII is in fact a degradation from factory untouched condition.


I agree with the others who have posted on the subject tunic that the price is in range of what others have sold for and it is a great tunic.......I will say for what it's worth that I would think that the tabs were moved in order to properly fit the NCO tress.....and I think that was pretty standard...so I guess that every NCO tunic is altered...well of course they are as they were not factory made that way..so maybe there will be (or is it already?) a sophisticated point system devised to deduct so many dollar's (Euros Pounds whatever) for everything changed on a tunic after it left the factory?

Sorry if this sounds sarcastic as that is not my intent, I have been seeing more and more over the last 5-10 years people apologizing for wartime standard additions, promotions, awards and tailoring performed on tunics....something that I could not even imagined earlier.

[Johnny R]

The "untouched" term as I understand it comes from "Untouched since the War" meaning unaltered or embellished etc. It is an ambiguous and vague term (especially if you think about it too much) and I like "wartime configuration" more to describe this unmodified tunics that remain as they were during the Wartime period.

[phild]

The "untouched" term as I understand it comes from "Untouched since the War" meaning unaltered or embellished etc. It is an ambiguous and vague term (especially if you think about it too much) and I like "wartime configuration" more to describe this unmodified tunics that remain as they were during the Wartime period.

Yea I'm with you on that, but it seems like more and more the standard is for "as factory" rather than simply "wartime configuration".

Honestly I think that maybe this thinking is being driven by a reluctance to judge anything that is other than factory....except the detachable straps/boards....and maybe medal loops. The default becomes if it is not factory applied then it COULD be post war and therefore rather than make a determination if it is pre-May45 I will just pass on it.

[Michael Kuligowski]

I think part of the problem with the term "untouched" is that it is simply impossible to say precisely when, for example, a private purchase upgrade breast eagle was hand stitched. There is just no way to know for sure. Factory applied insignia are much easier to judge with some level of certainty. I have no problem with the seller's description of the E-Stand tunic as "untouched" but feel it is important to recognize that it cannot be stated with absolute certainty that the current breast eagle has been on there since pre-1945. Often "untouched" is a term that requires a gut feeling or even a leap of faith, when hand-sewn insignia are involved.

Lots of good points here, take a note Chris that Your tunic has been shortened by taylor - to me thats a no no - when i shop for tunics.
tunic in question here is a nice 1939 one - but without a waffenfarbe litzen is not as desirable IMHO
I recently bought a un-altered 1937 tunic for $2400 and I am very happy with it... there was a perfect early M36 on PvL site about 2 months ago for $2500.

So it is a steep price - but market will set its true value, if it wont sell soon - We may see reduction .. and maybe another reduction.. eventually will sell for whats worth.. or will go back to the closet... nothing new here

[CWP]

I kind of like the shortening on the M36 I posted the link to, it does not diminish it in my eyes, though I acknowledge that it does detract from the overall desirability, in terms of how other people may see it. As I have stated, to me, these kind of personalizations add character and personality to a tunic. I don't have any unissued tunics and I wouldn't want to have one. Here is another M36 that I like even better, it has branch piped litzen and has a private purchase embroidered eagle stitched right on top of the original factory applied Bevo eagle. It has been resized by a tailor, shortened and taken in, perhaps a reissue. Despite this, it is one hell of a worn original tunic, in its original configuration (I added the slip-on shoulder boards). I paid $1400 for this one on the E-Stand, no doubt the period alterations had turned off some potential buyers looking for unaltered pieces.

[Johnny R]

I like the used tunics and wearer altered tunics as well. They were used during the historic events etc. and periods and are "artifacts". To me they just have more "pizzazz". I have mint unused issue stuff I picked up a long time ago before it cost a fortune but it is really is not as interesting to me as period worn unaltered original items. IMO the period modifications make each piece unique.

[OSS]

I, like many of you, think wartime embellishments and alterations add to the appeal and value of tunics; it is those post-war improvements (some by unscrupulous dealers, some by collectors) that are problematic. Perhaps the term "untouched" is too ambiguous, maybe "unadulterated" or "uncontaminated" would express it better. At any rate, when you see a tunic that has not been messed with since the war, you recognize it as something special and something worth mentioning.