How untouched is this Uffz tunic with Krim shield? It looks lovely but ....?

[Forseti]

I think i will never understand...

believe me. MOST (if not nearly ALL) tunics coming from germany have REapplied eagels. Thats because the first thing the did here after the war was removing all Hakenkreuz and Hitler-Related Things. I have family documents where they wrote over the official TR stamps. Its kind of pathologic here in Germany. I am in Germany and I know what I am talking about. There are still (even if they become less and less) items out here - but nearly all have the eagle or at least the swastika cut off.

If an original Eagle is reapplied at a place where it once had been - it is no problem for me.

Just my five Euro-Cent

[LuckyStrike23]

I think i will never understand...

believe me. MOST (if not nearly ALL) tunics coming from germany have REapplied eagels. Thats because the first thing the did here after the war was removing all Hakenkreuz and Hitler-Related Things. I have family documents where they wrote over the official TR stamps. Its kind of pathologic here in Germany. I am in Germany and I know what I am talking about. There are still (even if they become less and less) items out here - but nearly all have the eagle or at least the swastika cut off.

If an original Eagle is reapplied at a place where it once had been - it is no problem for me.

Just my five Euro-Cent

Maybe some of the stuff was stripped but for sure not all of them. i have seen enough jackets, wraps, headgear that was unaltered since 1945.

[Towarish]

Maybe some of the stuff was stripped but for sure not all of them. i have seen enough jackets, wraps, headgear that was unaltered since 1945.

Well said, Lucky.
Nothing more to add.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all your excellent comments. IMO so far so good. I agree that the breasteagle is probably replaced, but I also agree with Forseti that a lot of tunics lost their breasteagle in captivity/at the end of the TR. If the breast eagle is however an orginal and the only item replaced on a tunic I am not such a purist that that is a dealbreaker for me. In a way a replaced breasteagle could be considered a tell that you are probably dealing with at least an original jacket even if it can not be considered 100% untouched. And yes there are 100% untouched items out there (and in my collection) but considering the fact that most breast eagles were probably removed at some stage, I think a replaced but original (i.e. not post war) eagle is acceptable. But that is where I do draw the line. Added cufftitles, arm shields and other insignia is a no go for me.

So far no one seems to have a problem with the Litzen, the ribbons and the shoulder boards. If you do, please let me know. The Krim shield itself seems to raise no difficulties, just that some of you do not like that is applied at an angle in stead of straight. If originally applied, I am willing to accept that as artistic license of the original owner.

Comments on the above or on the tunic itself are still very much welcome. All responders so far thanks for your time and knowledgable comments.

Cheers, W

[Johnny R]

I think the phrase "artistic license is important here, IMO we are dealing with modern art as opposed period work. The shield is at an extreme angle and is forward on the sleeve. Towards it not being original I cannot say, nor can anyone else aside from the person that applied it, but I would not buy it.

It is a nice base tunic but the shield IMO looks horrible. Also if the shield is post War applied, then the ribbons and the shield most likely are as well as they are sewn on with the same "talent" of our artist shown by his handwork on the eagle which follows many of the other paintings and sculptures we see from the modern Chimpesque tailor skills school of starving artisans. The tabs are extremely well sewn by hand and the application/skill level to me are much more typical for tunics like this.

Towards finding items in Germany which are not de-nazified, when I lived there in the 80s (BRD) it was not uncommon but was also not a rare event, I think this was done to a much greater extent in DDR has been done more recently after veteran's passed away by their families etc. Tunics that were worn in POW camps or when captured were denazified after May 8th by Allied regulatations but many of the dress tunics, hats etc. that were not worn remained intact.

[LuckyStrike23]

Tunics that were worn in POW camps or when captured were denazified after May 8th by Allied regulatations but many of the dress tunics, hats etc. that were not worn remained intact.

Dont forget all the soldier who were never POWs. Me for example know two former officers who spent (for several reasons) not one single minute in a prisoner of war camp. War was over and they just went home, put their uniform in the wardorbe and startet a new life. This was not uncommon especially in bavaria in the US-sector.

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Johnny R,

Correct me if I am wrong but would you not expect to see a difference in quality between tailor/factory work and that done by the common soldier? The tunic itself is obvious workmanship and made by a professional. I would however expect that a NCO who would have received the ribbons and the shield in the field to apply these himself to the tunic. That this might have been done rather amateurish would not suprise me and therefore need not make it a postwar application. I myself am much more worried about all these wonderfully neat and mint tunics that seem to have been very professionally sewn together yesterday.

Cheers, W

[jacquesf]

Hi Johnny R,

Correct me if I am wrong but would you not expect to see a difference in quality between tailor/factory work and that done by the common soldier? The tunic itself is obvious workmanship and made by a professional. I would however expect that a NCO who would have received the ribbons and the shield in the field to apply these himself to the tunic. That this might have been done rather amateurish would not suprise me and therefore need not make it a postwar application. I myself am much more worried about all these wonderfully neat and mint tunics that seem to have been very professionally sewn together yesterday.

Cheers, W

If you got it from the vet, yes it would be correct and plausible, however coming from Weitze who is known for creative sowing, I would be doubtful. You can however lift the shied and look for a fading shadow. Jacques

[kaiserwilhelm2]

Hi Jacques,

your point about Weitze is immaterial. Weitze, as quite a few other dealers, sells both good and bad stuff. So unfortunately whether or not the tunic comes from him does not really make a difference. What speaks against it being doctored by Weitze is that his tailoring usually is quite good. He would not have had the shield put on crookedly and with such a sloppy stitch. Unless of course this is a new approach to messing with tunics - let us do it sloppy (reverse psychology).

So once again we are left with the question what can we see and what do we know? What we can see is a crookedly applied Krim shield that is very matter of factly, not estatically pleasing, sewn to a - I guess we all agree on that - genuine tunic. Could this have been hand stiched in the field by a NCO who did it somewhat different from how it is usually done? I would say yes it could have been. Not everything is text book. So it looks like we are at a dead end.

It may be a mostly 'untouched' tunic with a replaced breast eagle. Whether or not the attached shield is original to the tunic is unclear. Judging by the rust stain an arm shield on the tunic is quite likely. If no one can point out a tell that it has been post war applied it could very well be original to the tunic. So far I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers, W

[jacquesf]

Answer is simple, if you like it buy it. Jacques

[Spanish Freiwillige]

Considering the source it has a good chance of being partly original but also with some original post war added insignia.

So if you like it and you are happy with teh idea that it might be a bit post war tampared go ahead, you can never know for sure................

[Johnny R]

Hi Johnny R,

Correct me if I am wrong but would you not expect to see a difference in quality between tailor/factory work and that done by the common soldier? The tunic itself is obvious workmanship and made by a professional. I would however expect that a NCO who would have received the ribbons and the shield in the field to apply these himself to the tunic. That this might have been done rather amateurish would not suprise me and therefore need not make it a postwar application. I myself am much more worried about all these wonderfully neat and mint tunics that seem to have been very professionally sewn together yesterday.

Cheers, W

Usually at least the collar and tabs and the eagle would be sewn on "professionally"(like the tabs) by the person or unit tailor that made these tunics. If the eagle and the tabs were consistent I would not have posted at all because it is a "never know" question.

In this case with the eagle sewn like the tilted shield and the ribbons it looks like a collector restore or upgrade. Most of the sewing was done neatly and when possible by a tailor with a machine etc. or with basic skills, the applications in this example are very very poor even for someone with minimal skills. More like a modern person with no knowledge of sewing rather than a 4+ year Vet NCO that had been in service etc.

One of the biggest mistakes anyone can make collecting is to assume that if it tunic has poorly applied insingia it must be real. There are collectors with this philosophy and their collections are almost completely rebadged junk. 30 years ago when tunics were 100 US people just made whatever they wanted, POA, WSS, Jaeger, Panzer, name it. These tunics are now "from old collections" and are viewed as "real". Most are not.