Wehrmacht HBT Stug wrap

[Richard P]

Mike,

Thanks...I actually don't deserve much credit, I believe they all came from this forum. I had just saved them because they were unusual.

Brian,

I actually thought I had covered this before. This wrap may have been issued and just unworn with the tag never removed, which renders your question N/A. There are dozens of Luft. uniforms in collections with full insignia and factory size tags on the sleeve. No one seems to question those?

I don't think anyone can say with absolute surety that all wraps, whatever type, came from the factory with A, B, and C. None of us were there, I don't think there are many factory worker witnesses left, and I don't think we will ever know. We can postulate as many theories as we want, but they are not provable. Only forensically can we even show that something is WWII applied, and even then its only an educated guess.

For whatever reason...this wrap appears to have all factory applied insignia. There are plenty of photographs around depicting factory workers on an assembly line and the tunics appear to have all insignia. Unless you can come up with an eye witness, some mystery will remain. Each individual, based on his experience, could reach a conclusion, real or fake, on this wrap in person. They stand a 50/50 chance of being right.

Derka,

Remember, there actually is no RBNR number....there is an NR number (possibly a pre RBNR numbering system?). Also remember that I know next to nothing about HBT wrappers. Your theory about the possibility that it might be a pre second pattern wrap or transistional piece is WAY better than my thoughts. I don't even have references on HBT stuff, just a few scattered pics, so I was totally shooting in the dark. Makes much better sense especially with the double row of buttons. How does the unusual NR number fit in your timeline?

Thanks for all your help on this topic since I am winging it after seeing the wrap in person at the beginning of May.

Richard P

[PANZERPIONIERE]

Great photos!
Steve

[derka]

re,

you are right, Richard,
no RB, i don't know why, curious.
and i have no logical explaination for NR only.


despite the use of what looks like original hbt material,
there are differences (anomalies for some) in construction of certain typical area (aside colar) on the wrapper we discuss,
comparing to other similar or close hbt items with same caracteristics.

one ex with focus on armpit construction,
to compare with the one shown #29 :



on a"first pattern" hbt wrapper



on a special "nebelwerfer" hbt tunic



and on "second pattern" hbt wrapper



IMHO questions about its originality still remain.
i would realy love to have it in hands for a close examination like you did.

derka

[Richard P]

Derka,

I agree, a hands on would be necessary for most. If this had not come out of a rag mill for its cloth weight, and I didn't know the parties involved in its history, I would probably join the fake vote. Many thought the bundles of tropical caps with and without soutache were fake for a long time. Unfortunately there is only one of these. I sincerely doubt that any fake out there looks just like this considering all the anomalies you mentioned. Although S d F states its a dead ringer, but offers no photos to back it up.

Its obvious in hand that great care was taken with this one from the boards, to the arm pits, to the insignia, interior pocket, etc. There are many added pieces that are not on production wrappers according to your photos. Also the off white HBT is used. I have never heard of that in any other real or fake HBT wrap.

Maybe it didn't have the RB before the NR because it was not from a production run, but still the manufacturer is identified by the number. Could be a test sample, and on and on. I have had a number of US production WWII experimental flying helmets. Some were made using parts of other helmets, some were made with parts unique only to them, some were just modified existing helmets.

Thanks for explaining with the use of photos.

Richard P

[Panzer]

As far as I am concerned as soon as you see it has zig-zag under the back of the collar it's a dud. I have NEVER seen an original with the zig-zag......never.
Wade K.

[Richard P]

Wade,

With all due respect, saying you have never seen an original HBT wrap with zig zag stitching is no where near the same as declaring an absolute, that no original HBT wrapper can exist with a zig zag sewn collar backing. Surely thats not what you mean.

The wrap surfaced out of storage 10 years ago and has been posted 3 times on this forum. There has to be at least one other fake exactly like it that someone can post photos of ?

I still don't understand why a faker would sew together 5 individual pieces of HBT to form the back of a fake collar when he has bolts of his fake HBT? Why make a fake with so many anomalies?

I forgot...every one that sees this in person agrees that it is real HBT. I guess that narrows it down to the anomalous fakes being made out of original HBT. They should be pretty easy to spot.

Richard

[Richard P]

2.

[Panzer]

Hi,
generally I do not deal in "absolutes" either, but if you can find me a 100% original one....especially from a veteran....I will eat my words. I have examined many of these HBT wraps....owned more than a few myself, and I say again....in 34 years of collecting I have NEVER seen an original with zig-zag behind the collar. NEVER. All the talk of "experimental and such is also much baloney. Ask the French guys where it has probably come from.......they will tell you immediately.

Sorry to say but (wait for it!) "I could entertain doubts"

Cheers, Wade K.

[Luca Ongaro]

As far as I am concerned as soon as you see it has zig-zag under the back of the collar it's a dud. I have NEVER seen an original with the zig-zag......never.
Wade K.

I respect your knowledge but I am not agree.
Luca

[B. N. Singer]

generally I do not deal in "absolutes" either.... I have NEVER seen an original with zig-zag behind the collar...Sorry to say but (wait for it!) "I could entertain doubts"

Cheers, Wade K.

I concur.

B. N. Singer

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

I concur.

B. N. Singer

I've owned 2 originals, one unissued and one well used and I agree 100%.

[Luca Ongaro]

IMHO and again with all due respect to the last comments of reputable collectors, I would say that zig zag stitching under the back of the collar on HBT/denim wraps is acceptable on original wraps.
Mr Singer your words about a denim white wrap posted no more then one year ago by my friend Luca "Ardito" was not "I could entertain doubts" but "Outstanding Set" please explain it.

Mr Wade this is a 100% original one.

Here a pictures.

For those want know more here the link:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...te+panzer+wrap

Just my opinion.
Luca

[Luca Ongaro]

Collar.

[djpool]

I've owned 2 originals, one unissued and one well used and I agree 100%.

I've seen probably a half dozen original HBT/Denim wraps since I started collecting in the 70s. None ever had the zig zab stitching. The zig zag stitching isn't the only thing that bothers me. But I have full confidence that in 10 years HBT/Denim wraps with zig zag stitching (and other problems) will be the accepted "textbook" standard. The historical truth really doesn't matter, only what the collectors believe to be the truth.WR Jim

[B. N. Singer]

Mr Singer your words about a denim white wrap posted no more then one year ago by my friend Luca "Ardito" was not "I could entertain doubts" but "Outstanding Set" please explain it.

Here a pictures.

For those want know more here the link:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...te+panzer+wrap

Just my opinion.
Luca

I think that I would have to refer to the post #104 made by Mr. Davis. in this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...te+panzer+wrap

As for the HBT example in this thread, mine is but an opinion.

B. Singer