Wehrmacht HBT Stug wrap

[Luca Ongaro]

I think that I would have to refer to the post #104 made by Mr. Davis. in this thread http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...te+panzer+wrap
B. Singer

Byron, I am refering to the post number 53.
Luca

[B. N. Singer]

Byron, I am refering to the post number 53.
Luca

Yes, Luca I understand; and I would be forced to modify my posted comment (#52) as per the comment made by Mr. Davis in his post #104.

Regards,
Bryon

[Panzer]

Before I drift away into German WW2 retirement again I can only say again.....I have NEVER seen an original with the zig-zag. Many WANT to believe it.....but this does not make it so. In 34 years I have only seen ONE white coloured HBT set that was absolutely 100% irrefutably original. To me the others have all been bad. As have the ones in green with the zig-zag.

There are SO MANY fakes of the HBT stuff around.......but this has consistently been just one of the identifiable errors. The weight of the cloth is another.....the originals are a thin type fabric but quite heavy in weight. You only have to handle an original to never look at another repro again.

So sorry.....yes it is bad news for some......but it does not change the evidence seen by those who have handle many of these. It is not some variation in manufacture.......I mean....Ok, if someone turns up with an M36 tunic with a pink collar....I would say "sorry, those did not exist!".....can I PROVE that? no....I wasn't there and many tunics were made, But have I ever seen another? Nope. At the end of the day I can tell you only that I have NEVER SEEN ONE WITH ZIG-ZAG...........draw you own conclusions.

Auf Wedersein. Wade K.

[Richard P]

Wade,

No need to drift away, myself and others enjoy your input and your books.

I just want to make my position very clear. I don't really care for HBT wraps, I don't find them attractive. The only one that looks attractive to me would be a white or cream colored HBT with full insignia. I could care less whether all or none have the zig zag stitch or a neck ring for a full pressure space helmet attached.

An original piece should be judged in person based on its individual merits if possible. It either stands on its own, or it doesn't. There are guys on this forum that know this wrap is made of original HBT just by the photos alone. They remain silent as is their choice for whatever their reasons may be.

QUOTE PANZER "There are SO MANY fakes of the HBT stuff around.......but this has consistently been just one of the identifiable errors. The weight of the cloth is another.....the originals are a thin type fabric but quite heavy in weight. You only have to handle an original to never look at another repro again." END QUOTE

Less than a month ago collectors with 25, 41, 37, 45 & 45 years (just to number a few) of TR experience, who saw it in hand over a 2 day show, say this wrap is original German WWII HBT....period. Nothing more as to what it is exactly, no one seemed to know. It has all the original cloth characteristics Wade describes. I agree...if someone is making fakes with original HBT...then this may be one of them.

I say...reserve your judgment on this piece until you have it in hand if you still can't tell by the photos showing the front and back of the HBT. Post #38 shows the back of this wraps HBT.

Richard P.

[BDE]

Hello

Hello Richard.
Just because it might be made of original material does this make it original? What about all the other points that don't add up ?

Brian

[Richard P]

Brian,

I have actually covered both questions several times. I am trying to keep my writing to a minimum, so those who have trouble following can stay on track. To save all the other readers time, I won't repeat the answers again.

Richard

[BDE]

Hello

Hello Richard.
I have seen the jacket in person, I was not impressed. It is not something is would put in my collection.

Brian

[WWIIBuff]

HBT wrap

I too handled this piece at the Pomona show, but although I have a worn example in my collection, I do not know enough about these to make a comment on its originality. I will say the one thing I remember was how shinny it seemed to be, even for an unissued piece.

I'm actually surprised it is being sold so quick, as the person who had purchased it at the show seemed fairly excited about it.

Just my observation, but with Wades experience and not having seen any good HBT wraps with zig zag under the collar (mine doesn't have it either), perhaps Richard P. is correct about this being a limited production or test piece.

Also as Richard mentioned, and so did the buyer at the show, this is a known piece that has been around for a while, however nobody has said whether or not the fakes this is being compared to have been around for the same amount time. Anybody know the answer to this?

[Richard P]

John,

I have repeatedly asked for photos...a catalog...a website, anything showing photos of this exact wrap. The question is ignored and vague answers given. There are some very prominent advanced collectors trying to pry this away from the new owner.

How can so many advanced collectors, some with SS camo and HBT items that have wowed many of the members, fall prey to so obvious a fake? By the way the HSC fakes being referred to are apparently fairly recent products. Do their new fakes come with tags like this one has?

Richard P

[Richard P]

For sale by P v L,

Here are a few shots of a 4-pocket un-issued or un-used HBT jacket that Peter recently put up. Is this another product from HSC? Nice boards...

Richard P

[Richard P]

2.

[Richard P]

3.

[Panzer]

Why on earth would this be an HSC? Just because it has a paper tag on it? that is not great detective work! and the point in showing the zig-zag? The only thing the wrap and this tunic have in common are that they are made of HBT....nothing more.....not construction, cut nothing.

There are more than just HSC fakes out there......and more than one paper label....although the one on the tunic under discussion seems familiar to me.....as is the method of sewing it on. But then originals also have this.....

The fact is, go into any of the descent, old collections out there and there are NO HBT wraps with zig-zag behind the collar......everyone can "maybe this.....and maybe that"..... all, they like.....but there is not a scerrick of evidence that there is an original with this feature.....only a large number that do not. The odds frankly are against it. Pure and simple. But those with these wraps do not want any bad news........

Wade K.

[adlerfan53]

This is one crazy debate. I would also like to see the new fakes as well to make a comparison. This piece is not a new fake so what is missing here? I can tell you one thing though...I am never going to purchase any HBT tunics. I thought medal collecting was tough..this takes the cake here. Anyway, I like the tunic and it would be really great if it is authentic. Man, that makes an awesome display piece. Have fun with this one guys....

[nutmeg]

I saw this tunic in person and had no problem with it. I know the source as well (where all the late pattern tropical tunics and DAK overseas caps floating around came from). I had no problem with this tunic and nearly bought it. I have an m43 Army tunic mint unissued with full insignia and the paper tag still attached. I got it from a local artist who bought it in 1952 to use as an artprop for models and never used it. It's pretty apparent some makers provided fully decked out tunics.