Totenkopf shoulderboards?

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Tresse doesn't matter. I have had army boards out of veteran estates with luft tresse, not actually that unusual. These boards, to me, could either be original or newly made and aged as galizien states. To me, it's hard to tell from the photos. What I see happening, is original boards being opened up, embroidery stitched on and then closed back up. Could that be the case here? Hands on would shine a lot more light on them.


Gerard

[Schulterklappen]

Fakes

This particular seller comes up with these pieces every so often. I believe he watches this forum and looks at originals, that people post, and takes things from there. I have seen several dubious pieces from him, such as GD straps, other 5th Kav. pieces, and recently some FP 19s. He seems to be quite "talented" at this, but there are patterns that show up.

[Bob Hritz]

Jim Pool has a pair I believe are original, and they vary quite a bit brom the posted examples. Jim's are identical to those on a tunic, which I had examined back in the late 1970s or very early 1980s. I believe the tunic has been featured in at least one reference book.

Bob Hritz

[PANZERPIONIERE]

I would heed Mr. Schulterklappen's advice, he is a scholar on this shoulder board subject from lower Alabama, of course.

Yes Bob, that tunic is in Angolia's series if I remember correctly.

[Glenn McInnes]

I am thinking along the same lines as Gerard. An original set of well used straps (most probably) that have been opened up to do the skull embroidery,tresse was then added and sewn on to close the strap back up.

Tresse (and skull) looks new when compared with the condition of the strap. I would bet if the tresse was removed you would see no evidence of it being on there for 60 years.

The "bad guy's" take less desirable original SS straps (signals,transport etc) apart and apply piping from broken down Heer straps (Panzer,Infantry etc) so anything is possible.




Glenn

[TJ Suter]

The Luftwaffe or Weimar pattern tress was used by the Army until around 1935 when it was changed to the 'diamond' pattern. Cavalry Rgt. #5 wore the Death's Head of the Life Hussars starting in mid '43 and was officially authorized in December '44. So, there is no reason why a strap from Cavalry Rgt 5 should show up with the Weimar pattern tress.

There is also no reason for the metal #5's. First of all the Rgt. # was not worn as the deaths head identified the regiment. Second, on an unteroffizier strap everything was embroidered.

There is nothing about this strap that says 'original' to me.

[djpool]

Jim Pool has a pair I believe are original, and they vary quite a bit brom the posted examples. Jim's are identical to those on a tunic, which I had examined back in the late 1970s or very early 1980s. I believe the tunic has been featured in at least one reference book.

Bob Hritz

As Bob mentioned I do have a set which could be original. If not they are the earliest fakes I know of and serve as the template for all the ones you see on the market. I posted a thread here:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...0&highlight=kr

One thing is certain they did produce embroidered straps for the 5Th KR. Carsten Fries has done exhaustive research on the 5th KR and has documentary evidence to that effect.Unfortunately no pictures have surfaced of the boards.

Now Kai Winkler had a few pairs that supposedely came from a tailor shop stock found during the last 5-10 years. I can't say for sure if they are good, but they do appear to be based on the boards I have. However close examination shows they are not the same. I posted a comparison of the skulls to show that. WR Jim

mine are on the left.

[djpool]

The boards that started this thread are the second batch of 5th KR straps to hit the market since I made the intial post on mine. however in both cases the skulls are different. Heres a comparison.

[LHR1]

Ultimately, source, history, and personal comfort level are the determining factors. That aside, I'm not so certain that Kurt Meyer's straps should be disregarded. According to the KR 5 regimental history, straps with hand-embroidered skulls for privates and junior NCOs were produced in several batches by smaller firms between 1943 and '44. The straps shown are pretty consistent with manufacturing techniques and materials used during this period. I also don't think that the Luftwaffe braid is a detractor - I have a number of post-1940 straps from various branches with the same field-applied Tresse. However, the mismatched metal numbers do not belong on Unteroffizier straps, are inconsistent with regimental usage between '43 and '45, and are probably a postwar applications.

Carsten Fries

[phild]

The Luftwaffe or Weimar pattern tress was used by the Army until around 1935 when it was changed to the 'diamond' pattern. Cavalry Rgt. #5 wore the Death's Head of the Life Hussars starting in mid '43 and was officially authorized in December '44. So, there is no reason why a strap from Cavalry Rgt 5 should show up with the Weimar pattern tress.

There is also no reason for the metal #5's. First of all the Rgt. # was not worn as the deaths head identified the regiment. Second, on an unteroffizier strap everything was embroidered.

There is nothing about this strap that says 'original' to me.

I think that there are a couple of incorrect aspects in the post above. First, the use of this style tress on Heer uniform items continued right up until the end of the war at least on a limited and perhaps unofficial basis. It's use by soldiers of the Heer in no way ceased when it was superceded circa 1935 by the diamond pattern.

Second, plenty of metal devices were used on NCO straps and metal was in fact the regulation and norm. I can not say one way or the other about the straps posted as I've never had my hands on an original pair...except briefly around the mid-1970s and my mind is too far gone (from 40 years of messing with this stuff!) to remember any meaningful details. In a general sense these look (to me) to have been modern made from old worn wool (maybe other original straps) and the materials do not strike me as typical 1943-44 materials used in strap manufacture.....but there are ALWAYS exceptions.

As for the improper use of the number along with the TK, well I'll just say with Cav. soldiers don't be surprised with any improper uniform alteration that you may run across...it seems to be their nature.

[CWP]

Metal was the regulation and norm for straps for Feldwebel and above. Embroidered numerals were the regulation and norm for Unteroffizier and Unterfeldwebel.

[phild]

Metal was the regulation and norm for straps for Feldwebel and above. Embroidered numerals were the regulation and norm for Unteroffizier and Unterfeldwebel.

Point taken, thanks.