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**djpool** · 09-08-2007, 10:37 AM

Just a short update. I mentioned(but not named) a long time and respected collector earlier in my discussion who may have had an identical wrap. I was able to make contact with the collector through a mutual friend. Here are the comments.

To edited:

I can't tell anything definitively from the photographs. I just sold
an olive green wrap like this one for a loss. Whether it as original I
couldn't tell for sure. ........editted... My jacket was made of
that OD material that the late war Gebergsjager pull-over with the
three pockets are made of. I showed it to George Petersen and he felt that material was original but the jacket had been made recently. I have never seen another. The Germans made these kinds of jackets out of everything and often it is difficult to impossible to tell for sure whether it was made in 1944 or 1994. I like the fact that the buttons are the paper kind and appear to match. These are more difficult to get than the metal dish buttons, but outside of that it is difficult to make a judgement from the photos. From edited

So as far as I'm aware this is still the only example out there in this material. Certainly if its a fake more than one example would have surfaced since 1992.

WR jim

PS the editted portion in the body of the message were names of other collectors who saw his wrap and liked it.

**ARDITO** · 09-08-2007, 02:19 PM

Hi,
the jacket for me is not original.
the cloth with which it's manufactured doesn't correspond.
I don't like the seams under the neck and other small details.
For me however it is not one of the copies produced by HSC,
because in that years they found some original cloth HBT and
they made to do false some HBT Trousers M43, Some HBT tunics M43
and some Panzer tunic . But not with this cotton.
However to compare the color I insert a photo of my complete.
Regards, Luca

**djpool** · 09-08-2007, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by ARDITO View Post

Hi,
the jacket for me is not original.
the cloth with which it's manufactured doesn't correspond.
I don't like the seams under the neck and other small details.
For me however it is not one of the copies produced by HSC,
because in that years they found some original cloth HBT and
they made to do false some HBT Trousers M43, Some HBT tunics M43
and some Panzer tunic . But not with this cotton.
However to compare the color I insert a photo of my complete.
Regards, Luca

HI Luca,

I appreciate your comments. The comments I've gotten on mine are probably 40% I think it might be good, 40% I think its bad and 20% undecided. Not too bad considering folks are having to make a judgement from pictures. Certainly a hands on inspection would make it easier for folks to either hate it or like it. Unfortunately wraps made from anything but HBT are difficult to assess. But certainly wartime pictures show smooth cotton etc wraps worn in various shades. However B/W photos make it difficult to determine the true color. But I believe the shades are varying colors of grey to grey greens. As to cloth/fabric, again another area difficult to determine. Certainly other garments used a variety of different fabrics from German made, to captured stocks. Even within German made clothes like HBT there are variations in weight, weave between manufacturers. But its nice to know its not a HSC fake.

I like the look of yours ,but from the one picture I can't say its original. Unfortunatly I've seen repro sets like yours in a similar color always with matching pants. However they were always in unissued condition.Yours looks worn but of course thats easy to simulate. Some other pictures would certainly be welcome. It would be interesting to compare the two.

WR Jim

**Luca Ongaro** · 09-08-2007, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by djpool View Post

Unfortunatly I've seen repro sets like yours in a similar color always with matching pants. However they were always in unissued condition.Yours looks worn but of course thats easy to simulate. Some other pictures would certainly be welcome. It would be interesting to compare the two.

WR Jim

Jim this is an untouched set found in Prato IItaly) if is correct.
Great uniform Luca, please let's see it here

Luca

**djpool** · 09-08-2007, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by oragno View Post

Jim this is an untouched set found in Prato IItaly) if is correct.
Great uniform Luca, please let's see it here

Luca

HI Luca,

I made no judgement on the wrap. In fact the picture made a good initial impression. But certainly more pictures would be needed to convence me or others (I think).

Of course HSC has a similar set in their book.No way to know if its real or not. The fakes I saw were similar in appearance to the HSC one. Big problem was zig zag stitching on collar and stamps in non textbook location. WR Jim

Attached Files

hsc wrap.jpg (31.2 KB, 526 views)

**ARDITO** · 09-09-2007, 04:39 AM

Hi Jim,
what affirms is true I cannot judge the originality of this jackets from the photos, however I have only express an opinion.
You are right when you say that the Germans have used a lot of captured materials,
Wool from Czechoslovakia, many types of French cotton, cotton of the Russian ponchos, Italian wool (used for manufacturing uniforms of the SS),
what in Tipo943, cotton type "OLONA" to manufacture tropical uniforms not to speak of the mimetic cloth Italians and Hungarians.
My suit has been recovered together to another identical in a factory of Prato where ricicled the cotton, in the packages of rags.
The firm HSC in Paris, is not true that only manufactured copies, for many years they has had a lot of original material, and I regularly purchased from this seller, has started to sell copy when the holder is separated by his wife that he managed the whole correspondence, and when, with the collapse of the wall in Berlin, he is been able to use the industry Cecoslovacca and Russian for the production of almost perfect copies.
And however the reconstructions done on Militaria Magazine are reliable,
in how much HSC only used her to make themselves publicity.
I insert some photos of my jacket.
Regards, Luca.

**Johnny R** · 09-09-2007, 10:59 AM

Bingo

Originally posted by derka View Post

hello,

Jim,
on this link, i believe you'll find 2 pictures of an example of this kind of wrap in grey green cloth, worn by oblt Ludwig in Normandy in 1944 :

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=hbt+wrap

the one you showed came from a book where "HSC" society furnished several pieces,
but not all of them, the correct french editor is "histoire et collections".
the book was made with articles, called "gros-plan", who were published before in a rewiew called "militaria magazine", same editor.
the main author was the same for both, at this time employed by "HSC" society (i don't know if it is still the case today), society whose "bad reputation"for saling original stuff AND fakes has ever been pointed as you noticed it. those articles included lots of pieces who came from private collectors., most of them were at this time members of a french collector association, called "de bello collection", which still exist today.
at the raise of this rewiew, directed by executive members of this association at this time, the communication "bulletin" of this association was included in it, but this is not the case anymore since several years.
it explains why some members lended (for free of course) some of their own stuff for articles in the rewiew, including those "gros-plans".
there was sometime a mixt of origins in the same "gros-plan", it was the case in the one showing the wrap you asked infos about,
and in a lot of those "gros-plans".

so you are particulary right when you wrote :
"There has been some discussion that they put fakes in the book to help them sell them. Of course there are a lot of original pieces in the book too. Unfortunately their reputation makes everything suspect especially the rare items."

just my 2 cents,
send me pm for further details if you wish.

derka

Right on the head. This is the fabric (in the book) that I have been told by many collectors was mode post War in France. There are A LOT of fakes and modified tunics in many books as well as fake "period" photos of reenactors. Because something is in a book does not mean it is real. I also agree with the statement about Weitze selling questionable items. With regards to the tunic in the thread I do not believe it is original based on fabric, cut and the alteration problem Mr. Singer brought up. I like Lucas set. This is what I would want to see for a real uniform etc. I had a pair of pants made out of identical fabric and it did not work for me. I think these were made in the 1980s. That is the first time I remember seeing them in Europe for sale at shows, circa 1986 or so.

**B. N. Singer** · 09-09-2007, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by ARDITO View Post

I insert some photos of my jacket.
Regards, Luca.

Outstanding Set!!

B. N. Singer

**Mike Davis** · 09-09-2007, 11:25 AM

Super mouse grey set indeed - ultra rare! I have no doubts about this one.

>>> Amended: My initial comment above may have been hasty based on my impression of the posted photos. Now, after comparing those photos with an example to hand, I do have questions as there are certain differences.

**djpool** · 09-09-2007, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by jhodgson View Post

Right on the head. This is the fabric (in the book) that I have been told by many collectors was mode post War in France. There are A LOT of fakes and modified tunics in many books as well as fake "period" photos of reenactors. Because something is in a book does not mean it is real. I also agree with the statement about Weitze selling questionable items. With regards to the tunic in the thread I do not believe it is original based on fabric, cut and the alteration problem Mr. Singer brought up. I like Lucas set. This is what I would want to see for a real uniform etc. I had a pair of pants made out of identical fabric and it did not work for me. I think these were made in the 1980s. That is the first time I remember seeing them in Europe for sale at shows, circa 1986 or so.

John,

To set the record straight heres what B.N.Singer said:

Well, without great deal of study for comment, unless altered and never worn (a possibility I suppose) the pressed fiber buttons seem very "tight" and quite clean.

B. N. Singer

Has it been altered and not worn? If so then my comment has no merit.
B. N. Singer

He may in fact not like it, but he certainly didn't use his oft quoted "Based on the pictures I could entertain doubts.".

The wrap I posted has never been shown in a book.The ones in the HSC work on German Uniforms are completely different.

As far as the cloth is concerned I've been told by several folks that its not the same as the French cloth you alluded too. Not saying the cloth is period only different from known fakes.WR Jim

**derka** · 09-09-2007, 01:04 PM

hello,

Ardito wrote :
"The firm HSC in Paris, is not true that only manufactured copies, for many years they has had a lot of original material, and I regularly purchased from this seller, has started to sell copy when the holder is separated by his wife that he managed the whole correspondence, and when, with the collapse of the wall in Berlin, he is been able to use the industry Cecoslovacca and Russian for the production of almost perfect copies."

sorry,
but he ever sold fakes in 1980, among original items.
like others dealers now.

regards
derka

**PANZERPIONIERE** · 09-09-2007, 01:40 PM

Excellent Ardito!
A magnificent set!
What I would give for that!
Steve.

Looking for anything pertaining to Pi.Btl.16 or Pz.Pi.Btl.16.

**PANZERPIONIERE** · 09-09-2007, 01:44 PM

Excellent Ardito!
This is the BEST!
Someday I hope to have this type in my small humble collection.
Steve

Looking for anything pertaining to Pi.Btl.16 or Pz.Pi.Btl.16

**djpool** · 09-09-2007, 01:51 PM

Since I'm here to learn can I pose a question to the members. Prior to all the fake HBT/mouse grey wraps flooding the market, every original HBT or mouse grey wrap I knew of, never had the zig zag stitching on the back of the collar and were marked in a different place. So is it now true that zig zag stitching and stamping on the pocket of HBT/denim wraps is perfectly acceptable? In that case I owe apoligies to the owners of the white wraps shown in the picture below. (the one at the upper left is Lucas) WR Jim

PS Luca no hit on your wrap. Since everyone else has given it a thumbs up I will run with the pack.

Attached Files

zig zag.jpg (44.1 KB, 478 views)

**Johnny R** · 09-09-2007, 02:35 PM

Fake wraps

I remember seeing fake HBT wraps in Frankfurt at a show in the Fall of 1986 or 87, I think it was 1987. They had RBN stamps but the cloth was odd and they were brand spanking new.

I cannot remember the collars etc. and can not say if this is one of them, meaning the primary uniform in the thread but it looks like one from what I can remember. I seem to recall a lot of them have the same RBN #.

I did not say your tunic was in one in the book but the fabric shown in the books and which Derka made reference to some questionable uniforms like this in the HSC books. I know there are fake items, restored items and fantasy pieces in many reference books and militaria magazine.

I may be incorrect but I read Mr. Singer's comments as questioning the likelihood that is was altered and not worn as "entertaining doubts" on it being real. I am of course only laity and may be smitten by his wrath but I will take a shot at glory by interpreting his words.

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