Battalion Pole Ring

[robert]

Hi gang, got this pole ring recently and had it checked out as OK by some of the big boys but wanted to share it here none the less. I haven't had a standarte since the 90s and am really out of touch, but this was in a local auction as a napkin ring and had to take a run at it. so anything you can tell me about interesting details, rarity, value etc would be welcome. For instance what does the little "2" stamped on the flange mean? is it a "bench number" or a LDO number? Thanks in advance - R PS/ it rings like a struck coin when dropped rather than clattering like a cast item.

[robert]

more pictures

Here's a couple of more pics

[robert]

and more

and more

[robert]

last one for now

how are these pics? Let me know if you want other shots.

[robert]

oops

hewer's the last one.

[oldflagswanted]

Imo ...

Battalion Pole Ring
... anything you can tell me about interesting
details, rarity, value etc would be welcome.

Hello Robert:
IMO, an authentic model-1935 Heer unit flag pole
ring, based on the many correct shown details (font,
title engraving, ring size and layout, etc.). But having
said this, oddly the II./Pz.Rgt.39 unit designation
does not appear in the official listing of presented
M-35 standartes, which ended in 1939. So this Panzer
ring was not on one of the 115 pink panzer swallowtails
made between 1935-1939. This is likely because Panzer
Regiment 39 was formed on 1 October 1940, in military
district XVII, as part of 17th Panzer Division. And
when the 1939 war broke out, new unit flag production
was suspended pending victory at the end of the war,
when new flags would again be presented, and wartime
redesignations of branch colors with battle streamers
would be accommodated. IMO it is possible that Panzer
Regiment 39 still desired to have two battalion flags,
and as such the units commanding officers & staff had
pink swallowtails (battalion I & II) privately made.
I know this did happen in the U.S. Army when Colonel's
could not wait for the PQMD supply system to provide
them unit colors - although very rarely encountered.
OFW
PS/ From WAF t=55956, I note the following: Panzer
units were "... ordered to try a last ditch attempt to
reach the encircled troops at Stalingrad. All the tanks
from the 17th panzer and 23rd panzer divisions were
combined into the 39th Panzer Rgt, 37 servicable tanks
in all. They were only 35 miles from the encircled troops
when they tried to take a bridge which was the last
obstacle between them and the entraped 6th Army. At this
bridge the 37 tanks were met by the entire 13th Soviet
tank Brigade. Needless to say they never made it although
they did live to fight another day." The 39th Panzer Rgt.
surrendered to Soviet forces in Czechoslovakia in 1945.
But by then Hitler had ordered in 1944 all German Army
unit flags to be turned into their museum system to help
prevent their in the field combat capture. OFW

[oldflagswanted]

update ... new fake up for auction.

... II./Pz.Rgt.39 unit designation does not appear in
the official listing of presented M-35 standartes, which
ended in 1939. So this Panzer ring was not on one of the
115 pink panzer swallowtails made between 1935-1939. ...
OFW

IMO a fake II./SS Pz.Rgt.3 ring is now up for auction.
Likely from the same maker source as the II./Pz.Rgt.39
now questionable lineage swallowtail standard pole ring.
OFW
(below) The fake SS flag pole ring now up for auction.

[paulj]

It's my understanding a number of original blank rings were acquired by a German dealer several years ago.

[oldflagswanted]

SS flag pole rings ???

It's my understanding a number of original
blank rings were acquired by a German dealer
several years ago.

Very interesting. Likewise, IMO the only SS
unit flags with engraved pole rings were
those of the WW2 made LAH Infantry Bn's.
OFW
(below) Only SS design with unit pole rings.

[rkdek]

I don't like either one of the rings presented in this discussion.

The first ring seems too smooth on the inside and the numbers are engraved too "simple".

Please compare to originals in the Museum of the Armed Forces in Moskau:
http://military-angar.ru/rcols/view/5

[rkdek]

Concerning the stamped number, they all seem to have it.

I would like to know if the number on the ring is the same than on the wooden pole under the finial, see:
http://military-angar.ru/rcols/view/2

[oldflagswanted]

Ring compare ...

I don't like either one of the rings presented in this discussion.

The first ring seems too smooth on the inside and the numbers
are engraved too "simple".

Please compare to originals in the Museum of the Armed Forces in Moskau:
http://military-angar.ru/rcols/view/5

Thanks for the interesting Russian ring link.
OFW
(below) Two pole rings in question vs. Russian.

[Berghof]

The tab that links to two sections together differ between the first two and the Russian website. The Russian sites tab is much thinner, but that variance could be because of different manufactures?? Not as much detail on the first two like rkdek mentioned....many more passes with the engraving pen on the Russian Site examples.

WAF Example Top, Russian Site Example Bottom

[Michael N]

I don't like the ring posted.

[oldflagswanted]

ring & pole same stamped number ???

...
I would like to know if the number on the
ring is the same than on the wooden pole
under the finial, see: .ru/rcols/view/2

Hello rkdek:
Poles with original rings are rare
out side of Russia, but likely so on
the same matching number stamp.
OFW
(below) Ring & Pole 23 stamped.